The Catholic Church and the Jewish people a question....

mmathewes · **Posted:** Tue Apr 26, 2005 6:34 pm

Does the Church teach that Jews are saved still through the Old Covenant and don't have to go through Jesus, the New Covenant and the Church?

Brendan · **Posted:** Tue Apr 26, 2005 6:40 pm

Here is the Churches position on the necessity of Christ and His Role in Salvation

Dominus Iesus

God has a special place in His heart and a special Love for the Jewish people. It was to them that He first revealed Himself in Glory. So it pains Him greatly that they do not to recognize or accept the Gift of Grace He gave us on the cross.

Bonaventure · **Posted:** Tue Apr 26, 2005 7:27 pm

The Church teachers that all men must enter the true faith to be saved. God has made many covenants with man....Abraham, Moses, Noah, David. We don't get to choose which covenant we would like to follow. Really it is more proper to speak of one continuous covenant with man of which Jesus Christ is the definitive revelation and completion which every man must accept. They Jews are the chosen people because they are the ones to whom the law and then the Messiah have come to us by. Why would Our Lord prepare His people for Centuries for His coming in the flesh and then not care if they accept Him or not?

Sadly there are some in the Church who hold to a dual covenant theology. This is a very grave error.

Bonaventure · **Posted:** Tue Apr 26, 2005 7:29 pm

BTW, Marcella it is good to see you. I hope that you and your husband are doing well. Have you had any more talks with Mr Likoudis or anyone else?

mark malone · **Posted:** Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:15 am

and yet "all Israel will be saved".....

GoodSamaritan · **Posted:** Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:12 am

'all' can (and is, in this sense) be used in a distributive way, not purely an all-encompassing way in Scripture.

Quote:

And it shall be, in the place where it was said unto them, You are not my people; there they shall be called the sons of the living God. And Isaias crieth out concerning Israel: If the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved.

Romans 9

Quote:

But Israel, by following after the law of justice, is not come unto the law of justice. Why so? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were of works. For they stumbled at the stumblingstone. 33 As it is written: Behold I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and a rock of scandal; and whosoever believeth in him shall not be confounded. Romans 9

These seem to make my point, that not all of Israel, in a total sense, shall be saved. Paul says a 'remnant' will be saved and then inserts an 'if/then' clause explaining why it will only be a remnant.

mmathewes · **Posted:** Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:30 am

Thank you all. Is there anything that specifically addresses the jewish people though? I am trying to counter claims from my in laws. I need something that specifically addresses this issue. Is there any?

I am also pretty sure all Isreal will NOT be saved. The jewish people were never guaranteed salvation for just being jewish.

Good to see you too, Bonaventure. I have not talked to mr likoudis in a while. I am afraid I have slacked off of a lot of correspondence due to morning sickness. But I am still enjoying his books. They are really quite good!

mmathewes · **Posted:** Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:35 am

Oh and thank you for the link, Brendan. I do appreciate it and have saved it. I just wondered if there something more specific.

GoodSamaritan · **Posted:** Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:37 am

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_coun ... te_en.html

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congr ... co_en.html

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_ ... io_en.html

Stephen · **Joined:** Mon Jan 06, 2003 11:07 pm **Posts:** 767

mmathewes wrote:

I am also pretty sure all Isreal will NOT be saved. The jewish people were never guaranteed salvation for just being jewish.

"Saved" is not the right conceptual framework when applied to Jewish belief. To understand what will become of Am Yisrael or any individual Jew you will have to delve into something which is not espoused within the Catholic Church but which, nevertheless, for a Jew, is a great source of comfort and - ultimately - redemption: gilgul ha'ne'shamot.

If you want to understand this Jewish outlook for the purposes of interfaith discussions, independent of whether you choose to believe in it, see:

http://www.aish.com/literacy/concepts/R ... dition.asp

Best wishes on this lovely spring day.
May your continued interfaith studies be fruitful.

Bonaventure · **Posted:** Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:57 am

Good points goodsamaritan. Every time the world all comes up in any context we seem to have problems.

tAnGo · **Posted:** Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:07 pm

mmathewes wrote:

Does the Church teach that Jews are saved still through the Old Covenant and don't have to go through Jesus, the New Covenant and the Church?

Yes and no.

Read this from the papal encyclial Redemptoris missio:

Quote:

Salvation in Christ Is Offered to All

10. The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all. But it is clear that today, as in the past, many people do not have an opportunity to come to know or accept the gospel revelation or to enter the Church. The social and cultural conditions in which they live do not permit this, and frequently they have been brought up in other religious traditions. For such people salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his Sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit. It enables each person to attain salvation through his or her free cooperation.

For this reason the Council, after affirming the centrality of the Paschal Mystery, went on to declare that "this applies not only to Christians but to all people of good will in whose hearts grace is secretly at work. Since Christ died for everyone, and since the ultimate calling of each of us comes from God and is therefore a universal one, we are obliged to hold that the Holy Spirit offers everyone the possibility of sharing in this Paschal Mystery in a manner known to God."19

Faramir · **Posted:** Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:47 pm

Some good articles here:

http://hebrewcatholic.org/FaithandTheology/faiththeology.html

mark malone · **Posted:** Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:41 am

mmathewes wrote:

Thank you all. Is there anything that specifically addresses the jewish people though? I am trying to counter claims from my in laws. I need something that specifically addresses this issue. Is there any?

I am also pretty sure all Isreal will NOT be saved. The jewish people were never guaranteed salvation for just being jewish.

Good to see you too, Bonaventure. I have not talked to mr likoudis in a while. I am afraid I have slacked off of a lot of correspondence due to morning sickness. But I am still enjoying his books. They are really quite good!

you and good sam are correct----EVERY JEW wont be saved----but in the end , ALL ISRAEL WILL---for they are blinded in part.....

this is talking of the 2nd coming, when every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that.......

JESUS CHRIST IS LORD.

The Catholic Church and the Jewish people a question....

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