19. We reject as apostasy from the Christian religion not only the doctrine of the Unitarians, who promise the grace of God to men on the basis of their moral efforts; not only the gross work-doctrine of the papists, who expressly teach that good works are necessary to obtain justification; but also the doctrine of the synergists, who indeed use the terminology of the Christian Church and say that man is justified "by faith," "by faith alone," but again mix human works into the article of justification by ascribing to man a co-operation with God in the kindling of faith and thus stray into papistic territory.

23. We reject as a dangerous error the doctrine, which disrupted the Church of the Reformation, that the grace and the Spirit of God are communicated not through the external means ordained by Him, but by an immediate operation of grace. This erroneous doctrine bases the forgiveness of sins, or justification, upon a fictitious "infused grace," that is, upon a quality of man, and thus again establishes the work-doctrine of the papists.

43. As to the Antichrist we teach that the prophecies of the Holy Scriptures concerning the Antichrist, 2 Thess. 2:3-12; 1 John 2:18, have been fulfilled in the Pope of Rome and his dominion. All the features of the Antichrist as drawn in these prophecies, including the most abominable and horrible ones, for example, that the Antichrist "as God sitteth in the temple of God," 2 Thess. 2:4; that he anathematizes the very heart of the Gospel of Christ, that is, the doctrine of the forgiveness of sins by grace alone, for Christ's sake alone, through faith alone, without any merit or worthiness in man (Rom. 3:20-28; Gal. 2:16); that he recognizes only those as members of the Christian Church who bow to his authority; and that, like a deluge, he had inundated the whole Church with his antichristian doctrines till God revealed him through the Reformation -- these very features are the outstanding characteristics of the Papacy. (Cf. Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 515, Paragraphs 39-41; p. 401, Paragraph 45; M. pp. 336, 258.) Hence we subscribe to the statement of our Confessions that the Pope is "the very Antichrist." (Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 475, Paragraph 10; M., p. 308.)

catholic church - not the Roman Catholic Church.

They pray the Nicene Creed: "we believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic church ..." But this does not mean that they regard themselves as Roman Catholics, or that in the case of the Lutherans and Orthodox, that they would call themselves Catholic.

And for the record, there is no difference in the above two things.

I can't for the life of me figure out why these people bother to pray the Nicene creed - at least why they leave this line in. For they are professing belief in something they really don't believe in. And the fact that their 'idea' of the Catholic church is separate from the actual Church the Fathers speak of is inconsequential.

I decided to change the topic of this thread, becausr I didn't feel well posting it.

I understand some Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox and perhaps Lutherans view them selves all as part of the Roman Catholic church.

The only conflict is how much power the Pope ( Bishop of Rome) has.

Does any one know anything about this?


Cas.

The only conflict is how much power the Pope ( Bishop of Rome) has.

* The ancient text: one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

Let's change the words so we like them better. Those old words are just ancient, not really what I think we should say. Yeah, that sounds better.

As I understand it, the Eastern Orthodox do not view our Pope has having any power.

[I]ts present meaning was formally determined by the Vatican Council, Sess. IV, Const. de Ecclesiâ Christi, c. iv: "We teach and define that it is a dogma Divinely revealed that the Roman pontiff when he speaks ex cathedra, that is when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church, by the Divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed that his Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding faith or morals, and that therefore such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves and not from the consent of the Church irreformable."

Though I heard the Maronite priest in the Maronite rite church in my hometown is married with children, I bet some conservatives don't think thats fair....

To try to move back to the topic, I have a question. Do any of the Orthodox churches have leadership like our Holy Father or are they simply led by bishops? Do their bishops form something like our Magisterium?

THE GREEK (EASTERN) ORTHODOX CHURCH IN AMERICA

After the seventh Ecumenical Council in AD 787, the basic unity of faith and ecclesiastical life between East and West began to disintegrate, due to a variety of theological, jurisdictional, cultural and political differences. This eventually led to the Great Schism between East and West of AD 1054. This unfortunate division was aggravated to the point of a complete break in communication between the Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Church. Centuries later the protests against Rome in Western Europe gave rise to the Protestant Reformation.

The Orthodox Church today is a communion of self governing Churches, each administratively independent of the other, but united by a common faith and spirituality. Their underlying unity is based on identity of doctrines, sacramental life and worship, which distinguishes Orthodox Christianity. All recognize the spiritual preeminence of the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople who is acknowledged as primus inter pares, [or] first among equals. All share full communion with one another. The living tradition of the Church and the principles of concord and harmony are expressed through the common mind of the universal episcopate as the need arises. In all other matters, the internal life of each independent Church is administered by the bishops of that particular Church. Following the ancient principle of the one people of God in each place and the universal priesthood of all believers, the laity share equally in the responsibility for the preservation and propagation of the Christian faith and Church.
http://www.goarch.org/en/archdiocese/

Greek Orthodox Prepare for Contentious Assembly in New York
― Call it My Big Fat Greek Charter Dispute ―

(Religion News Service (RNS) - 7/21/04) An ongoing tug-of-war between Greek Orthodox Church leaders and restive parishioners is poised to heat up next week when clergy and lay delegates converge on New York City for a biennial legislative assembly.

On the surface, the scuffle may seem little more than a family feud in a relatively small ethnic church. But, in many ways, the dispute holds important ramifications for what it means to be Orthodox in America as New World parishioners seek to loosen ties to Old World authority.

It also could delay long-cherished dreams for a single, autonomous, multiethnic Orthodox church in North America that would unite Orthodox faithful who are currently spread across nine separate churches.

Relations soured in February when 34 members of the U.S. archdiocese filed suit to block a new church charter, or constitution, that they insist is not the one they approved at the church's last assembly in 2002.
http://www.ocl.org/Greek%20Orthodox%20Prepare.htm