Hello all. Merry Christmas

Had a question for you all about God's love and justice.

God loves all his creatures and by that, it means he wants what is best for us. God wills our salvation and keeps us all in existence.

In saying that, God is also just and if a person dies in mortal sin (ie, they choose to do something), they are damned to go to hell.
Christ himself says of Judas that it would've been better if he had never been born. Presumably because he was damned.

So, does God love the damned souls? He keeps them in existence but, their existence is pain and suffering for eternity.
Would it be the case then that God's justice in a sense, supersedes his love?
What is a good response to a Jehovah's Witness for example, who believes in the annihilation of unrepentant sinners at death?

They would say that God keeping them in existence just to torture them is not loving.

But if he doesn't love them, does this not contradict his loving nature?

Thank you everyone.

First of all, God does not send us to Hell -- we send ourselves. As for Jehovah's Witnesses, ask them what "annihilation" means? Does it mean "go to Hell?"

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I agree but, God keeps the damned souls in existence which is what I was saying.
And they mean that an unrepentant sinner ceases to exist when they die. They don't go to a place of eternal torment.

I agree but, God keeps the damned souls in existence which is what I was saying.
And they mean that an unrepentant sinner ceases to exist when they die. They don't go to a place of eternal torment.[/quote]
I don't see any profit in debating such people -- if they can believe what they believe, they clearly aren't amenable to logic or scripture.

Guess I should start the New Year off by stirring up some . . . stuff.

So, you are saying, in essence, that the God who knows the beginning from the end, who knew that mankind would fall through Adam, and by this fall, would condemn billions to an eternity of unrelenting pain and torment, went ahead and created mankind anyway, knowing that this would happen?

Would such an action be the action of one who IS love? God does not love . . . He IS love, therefore, everything that He does must be done according to this very ontological reality of who He is. And to create sentient creatures whom you know will fall into an unchangeable condition of eternal torment when you have no reason to do so (for God in and of Himself in the Trinity is complete, lacking nothing, and with no need) would not be an act of love, now would it?

That sounds a lot more like the vicious and angry pagan "gods" of the heathens than our Father who IS love, doesn't it?

The answer to the question is . . . Yes, God loves the souls in torment (there is no such place as hell). The torment that the wicked suffer comes from being in the presence of Christ and coming to the reality of your life, your sins, and the justice of God meted out to those sins. Both Christ and St. Paul warned that all of us will be rewarded according to our deeds here on earth. That is justice. Imagine, for instance, the horror and pain of King Leopold of Belgium (who makes Hitler look like a choirboy in comparison) as he is made to meet each African he enslaved, to feel personally the horror they felt, to know to the bottom of his soul what he did, to perhaps feel the exact same pain of each man, woman, and child who died under his brutal reign. That is what each one of us will face when we face Christ . . . our deeds, both good and evil. St. Isaac of Syria said that the pain of hell was this being in the presence of Christ . . . a torment for those who have done wickedness.

And yes, because God loves the souls in torment, this punishment is not retribution. It is restoration. It is designed to bring the soul to justice and repentance so that as the Sacred Scriptures state . . . "God will be all in all." when Christ hands over the Kingdom to the Father.

Yes, God is love. And He loves the wicked so much that He died for them, loves them in their torment, and loves them enough to find a way to bring them to Himself at the end of all things.

You know Ed, are you familiar with HL Mencken's definition of a "fanatic"? It is "someone who will not change his mind and will not change the subject", sad to say, but this describes you to a t. This is pretty much the only topic you ever talk about on here, on Facebook, and probably on every platform you post on, everyone knows what you think, so you don't have to keep beating the dead horse.

Why not start 2023 by turning the record over and talking about something else? Don't be a living embodiment of the wisdom of HL Mencken for another year.

It seems so to me. God is unchanging, and His love endures forever, so it seems to me that He loves those in hell. They just won't love Him back.