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 Post subject: Would Jesus have kissed the Qur'an as Pope John Paul II did?
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2022 5:30 am 
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I do NOT believe that Jesus would have kissed a Qur'an.

Jesus taught that he was "the way" to go to God the father.

John 14:6
English Standard Version
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.


The Qur'an teaches that there is another way to go to God the father. Do you believe that the Qur'an is correct? Neither do I.

So why would the Pope, who is supposed to be the direct descendant of Christ on Earth, kiss that book of lies and which would (presumably) lead its followers to eternal destruction?

Yea, I know. The Pope was trying to be polite and appreciative. Why he was even there in the first place in order to be put in such an awkward position is another question, but perhaps for another time.

Would Jesus have kissed any "holy" book which was not truthful and which preached another way to eternal salvation? My belief is - NOT A CHANCE! I'm confident that Jesus would have tossed such a book to the ground and then told them the truth! All Jesus ever did was tell the truth and that's why he was executed.

As a Catholic, that act by the Pope really shook me and caused me to re-evaluate everything and now I identify as solely a "non-denominational" Christian.


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 Post subject: Re: Would Jesus have kissed the Qur'an as Pope John Paul II
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2022 11:54 am 
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Some charity is in order here, whenever you are unsure of a person's motives or unclear about what was intended by a particular action, as long as it remains ambiguous, there is a moral obligation to give the benefit of the doubt. This is true of everyone you encounter, but doubly true of a pope.

It is unclear exactly what happened in this incident or what the Pope intended by his gesture, and since neither the Pope himself nor a papal spokesman ever commented on it, so the proper interpretation will remain forever murky..

There are several purported explanations. The first thing you need to understand is that the Quran was presented to the Pope as a gift. It wasn't "here's a copy of the Qur'an, show us how much you love it" which is how many spins it. It was an official gift from a diplomatic mission of an Islamic country.

The second thing to understand is that it is not just any copy of the Qur'an, it was a very expensive, ornately bound and illuminated copy worth thousands if dollars, and it was apparently made especially for the Pope.

Now, it is fair to ask why would a diplomatic delegation from an Islamic country present the Pope with a gift of the Qur'an, when they know he doesn't believe in it? Because to THEM, ie the Muslims, it is a very sacred and holy item, and therefore the gift is a sign of friendship and respect.

This being the case, some kind of gesture of gratitude and respect for the gift was required. The Pope chose on this occasion to show his gratitude by kissing it. We do not know why had chose this rather than something else, and unless someone discovers a secret document where the pope explains himself, we will never know.

Explanations i have heard include that the Pope had a habit of kissing presents, and did it just out of that habit and that the Pope was unaware that it was a Quran due to issues with the translation team and he thought it was a copy of the Gospels. Baring the sudden discovery of new evidence, we will never know.

But one thing is clear since a charitable interpretation is possible, there is absolutely no moral justification for adopting an uncharitable one.


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 Post subject: Re: Would Jesus have kissed the Qur'an as Pope John Paul II
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2022 12:57 pm 
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I also had heard that St. John Paul II kissed gifts that were given to him.

I know that he definitely was not approving of Islam.


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 Post subject: Re: Would Jesus have kissed the Qur'an as Pope John Paul II
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2022 1:46 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Some charity is in order here, whenever you are unsure of a person's motives or unclear about what was intended by a particular action, as long as it remains ambiguous, there is a moral obligation to give the benefit of the doubt. This is true of everyone you encounter, but doubly true of a pope.

It is unclear exactly what happened in this incident or what the Pope intended by his gesture, and since neither the Pope himself nor a papal spokesman ever commented on it, so the proper interpretation will remain forever murky..

There are several purported explanations. The first thing you need to understand is that the Quran was presented to the Pope as a gift. It wasn't "here's a copy of the Qur'an, show us how much you love it" which is how many spins it. It was an official gift from a diplomatic mission of an Islamic country.

The second thing to understand is that it is not just any copy of the Qur'an, it was a very expensive, ornately bound and illuminated copy worth thousands if dollars, and it was apparently made especially for the Pope.

Now, it is fair to ask why would a diplomatic delegation from an Islamic country present the Pope with a gift of the Qur'an, when they know he doesn't believe in it? Because to THEM, ie the Muslims, it is a very sacred and holy item, and therefore the gift is a sign of friendship and respect.

This being the case, some kind of gesture of gratitude and respect for the gift was required. The Pope chose on this occasion to show his gratitude by kissing it. We do not know why had chose this rather than something else, and unless someone discovers a secret document where the pope explains himself, we will never know.

Explanations i have heard include that the Pope had a habit of kissing presents, and did it just out of that habit and that the Pope was unaware that it was a Quran due to issues with the translation team and he thought it was a copy of the Gospels. Baring the sudden discovery of new evidence, we will never know.

But one thing is clear since a charitable interpretation is possible, there is absolutely no moral justification for adopting an uncharitable one.



I agree with Doom.


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 Post subject: Re: Would Jesus have kissed the Qur'an as Pope John Paul II
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2022 10:06 pm 
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Since nobody answered the question, I'll ask it again. Do you believe that Jesus would have kissed that book?


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 Post subject: Re: Would Jesus have kissed the Qur'an as Pope John Paul II
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 1:38 pm 
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nm


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 Post subject: Re: Would Jesus have kissed the Qur'an as Pope John Paul II
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 4:28 pm 
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It seems that everyone dislikes the answer to the question and are therefore unwilling to answer it.


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 Post subject: Re: Would Jesus have kissed the Qur'an as Pope John Paul II
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 4:46 pm 
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Jesus said, "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." He clearly approved doing what would contribute to peace and brotherhood.


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 Post subject: Re: Would Jesus have kissed the Qur'an as Pope John Paul II
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 8:25 pm 
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Vern Humphrey wrote:
Jesus said, "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." He clearly approved doing what would contribute to peace and brotherhood.


Not true. Jesus told many truths and angered a lot of powerful religious leaders for doing so. That's why they executed him.

The Bible tells us not to love the world. It seems that the Church is a part of the world and that it wants to be loved by the world.

It's my belief that, anyone who thinks that Jesus would have kissed that lying, blasphemous, book, doesn't know Jesus. So why did the Pope?

It's evident to me that the Church is NOT the same church that Jesus started and that its Popes are no more recognized by God than any other Christian preacher.


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 Post subject: Re: Would Jesus have kissed the Qur'an as Pope John Paul II
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 8:34 pm 
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If you think that the Catholic Church thinks that a pope can't do stupid and blasphemous things, then you're wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Would Jesus have kissed the Qur'an as Pope John Paul II
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 8:51 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
If you think that the Catholic Church thinks that a pope can't do stupid and blasphemous things, then you're wrong.


If the Pope lacks spiritual discernment then it seems that he is no better or worse than any other Christian preacher that lacks discernment. And if the various Popes throughout history have been profoundly flawed spiritual leaders, why should anyone believe that the Catholic Church is the same church that Jesus started? I no longer believe that absurd claim.


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 Post subject: Re: Would Jesus have kissed the Qur'an as Pope John Paul II
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2022 7:42 pm 
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How does your conclusion follow from the premise?


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 Post subject: Re: Would Jesus have kissed the Qur'an as Pope John Paul II
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2022 8:01 pm 
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DogDude wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
If you think that the Catholic Church thinks that a pope can't do stupid and blasphemous things, then you're wrong.


If the Pope lacks spiritual discernment then it seems that he is no better or worse than any other Christian preacher that lacks discernment. And if the various Popes throughout history have been profoundly flawed spiritual leaders, why should anyone believe that the Catholic Church is the same church that Jesus started? I no longer believe that absurd claim.


Can you show me in the scriptures where Jesus promises that his Church will be led only by morally perfect men with flawless judgement?


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 Post subject: Re: Would Jesus have kissed the Qur'an as Pope John Paul II
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2022 12:27 pm 
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Doom wrote:
DogDude wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
If you think that the Catholic Church thinks that a pope can't do stupid and blasphemous things, then you're wrong.


If the Pope lacks spiritual discernment then it seems that he is no better or worse than any other Christian preacher that lacks discernment. And if the various Popes throughout history have been profoundly flawed spiritual leaders, why should anyone believe that the Catholic Church is the same church that Jesus started? I no longer believe that absurd claim.


Can you show me in the scriptures where Jesus promises that his Church will be led only by morally perfect men with flawless judgement?



No, but it's evident to me that Pope John Paul II (as well as the current Pope) was NOT spiritually discerned. For that matter, the history of Popes is very sordid. The Bible tells, repeatedly, not to love the world or be "of" the world. The Catholic Church is as "worldly" of an organization as there is. I do not believe that it is Christ's church here on Earth.

With that said, Catholics and Protestants share the foundational beliefs in Christ. I believe that we are ALL God's children in spite of our doctrinal differences.


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 Post subject: Re: Would Jesus have kissed the Qur'an as Pope John Paul II
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2022 8:00 am 
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If the Pope lacks spiritual discernment then it seems that he is no better or worse than any other Christian preacher that lacks discernment. And if the various Popes throughout history have been profoundly flawed spiritual leaders, why should anyone believe that the Catholic Church is the same church that Jesus started? I no longer believe that absurd claim.


I would suggest that you read about Peter as the bible presents him. Why do you suppose the bible goes so far out of it's way to talk about Peter? To highlight his behavior, his failings and obviously, his special mission?

The Church is founded on Peter as the "everyman". It is exactly in our weakness, our failures, our lack of spiritual discernment that the grace of God tseps in and holds us up. When Peter has turned...he is to "strengthen [his] brethren.

I am unafraid to answer your question. No, I don't think Jesus would have kissed the Koran. But the Popes are NOT Jesus nor are they God as so many accuse Catholics of believing. I, for one, am quite happy that the Church is NOT founded on perfect men who are so far above me that I have no hope. My faith is in God and what He can do for those who love Him. I'm not looking for the perfection of God in any man. Other than Jesus Himself, such a man does not exist.

You have asked what you feel is a pointed question. Let me ask YOU one?

If the Pope kissing a Koran means he can't be sent by God....does Peter denying Christ mean he wasn't sent either?




Scott


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 Post subject: Re: Would Jesus have kissed the Qur'an as Pope John Paul II
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2022 12:06 pm 
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We're getting into what I call Garage Sale Theology -- as if the Bible were only just discovered (perhaps purchased at a garage sale) -- and are resurrecting the ancient heresies as if they were brand new. What we have in this thread begins to look like Donatism, the validity of a sacrament is contingent on the state of grace of the celebrant. That, of course, is nonsense, since it would make each of us responsible for other people's sins.


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