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 Post subject: Re: How Do We Identify the Different Persons of the Trinity?
PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2021 11:52 am 
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 Post subject: Re: How Do We Identify the Different Persons of the Trinity?
PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2021 4:11 pm 
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gmor8802 wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Since the Persons are not three gods but one, the question of a "lack" does not arise. theJack is correct that the mutual relationships are the only way to distinguish Them.


We still distinguish different 'people' with what they lack though right? E.g. Tim lacks a beard, Jim lacks hair etc.

Could you explain the way we distinguish the persons of the Trinity by the mutual relationships please?
The difference is that John and Carl aren't just different persons, they are different substances. There isn't one human in 7.6 billion persons. There is, however, just one God, in three persons.


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 Post subject: Re: How Do We Identify the Different Persons of the Trinity?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:34 am 
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theJack wrote:
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We found the anti-satisfactionist boys. Lock 'em up with the other holocaust deniers!!!


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 Post subject: Re: How Do We Identify the Different Persons of the Trinity?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 11:02 pm 
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theJack wrote:
No, we don't distinguish different people, in the case of humans, through what the lack (i.e, Tim lacks a beard, etc.). In general, when you ask what distinguishes A from B, you are asking about the principle of individuation. What makes this an individual and that an individual. In the case of two humans, the principle of individuation is our bodies (or, if you prefer, our matter). I am this body. You are that body.

God doesn't have a body, being pure form. So the principle of individuation can't be matter. The same applies to angels, btw. So take two angels. What distinguishes them, since it isn't this body and that? It this case, it is that they literally have different forms. In an analogous way that a cat is not a dog and a dog is not a tree, so this angel is not that angel. They are different kinds of things.

But just as God doesn't have a body, so that the principle of individuation can't be matter, all three Persons are consubstantial, meaning they are the same substance, the same form, meaning that the principle of individuation can't be their form, either! So the principle of individuation is the relations one to another. And to explain *that*, I'll defer to Fr Obi, since he has a way of getting across complex ideas rather succinctly.


Jesus does have a body however. Jesus is co-equal with the Father and Holy Spirit. They do not have bodies but Jesus does.
But I find it problematic to say the way we can distinguish Jesus from the Father is to say that the Father "lacks" a body.

What are your thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: How Do We Identify the Different Persons of the Trinity?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 10:43 am 
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Jesus does not have a body by virtue of His Divinity.


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 Post subject: Re: How Do We Identify the Different Persons of the Trinity?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:59 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Jesus does not have a body by virtue of His Divinity.

Correct. The Son was the Son long before he was incarnated.


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 Post subject: Re: How Do We Identify the Different Persons of the Trinity?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:58 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Jesus does not have a body by virtue of His Divinity.


Yeah Jesus was God the Son for all eternity but he assumed a human body.
Jesus then died a human death and rose from the dead bodily.
After that, Christ ascended into heaven with his body.


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 Post subject: Re: How Do We Identify the Different Persons of the Trinity?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:16 pm 
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Read up on the communication of idioms.


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 Post subject: Re: How Do We Identify the Different Persons of the Trinity?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:49 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Read up on the communication of idioms.


"Communicatio Idiomatum, a technical expression in the theology of the Incarnation. It means that the properties of the Divine Word can be ascribed to the man Christ, and that the properties of the man Christ can be predicated of the Word."

What does that mean exactly?


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 Post subject: Re: How Do We Identify the Different Persons of the Trinity?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 3:47 pm 
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gmor8802 wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Read up on the communication of idioms.


"Communicatio Idiomatum, a technical expression in the theology of the Incarnation. It means that the properties of the Divine Word can be ascribed to the man Christ, and that the properties of the man Christ can be predicated of the Word."

What does that mean exactly?

usually summed up as "wholly man and wholly God."


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 Post subject: Re: How Do We Identify the Different Persons of the Trinity?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:06 am 
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Vern Humphrey wrote:
gmor8802 wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Read up on the communication of idioms.


"Communicatio Idiomatum, a technical expression in the theology of the Incarnation. It means that the properties of the Divine Word can be ascribed to the man Christ, and that the properties of the man Christ can be predicated of the Word."

What does that mean exactly?

usually summed up as "wholly man and wholly God."


Alright so Jesus being wholly man has a body and is in heaven though, he is the second person of the Trinity. He is God.

If Jesus has a body and the Father doesn't, it follows, at least on the surface, to say that the Father "lacks" a body since Jesus has one.
But again, to me it seems problematic to say that the Father and Holy Spirit "lack" a body while Jesus has one.
God cannot "lack" anything. What am I misunderstanding?


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 Post subject: Re: How Do We Identify the Different Persons of the Trinity?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 11:42 am 
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A body as such is a limitation. God's "lacking" a body is thus the absence of that particular kind of limitation, and hence no lack at all in the problematical sense.


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