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 Post subject: Re: Is God creating from nothing a logical contradiction?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:09 pm 
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Strider wrote:
Are you Catholic yet?

No. I'm afraid my expiration date on that may have passed some time ago. But I have definitely grown quite a bit in my views as a result of my time interacting with you all (and certain ones of you in particular -- you know who you are). So to that end . . .

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If not, I’d boot you out of here. You’ve been in here way too long not to be Catholic.

You just won't get my vote for administrator. I like the company. ;)

More to the point, are you paying attention to FrH? He's right on his points to you, you know. God's essence is incommunicable, so whatever you take deification or participating in God's nature to mean, it can't be that.

On a related note, it's a shame the East and the West haven't been able to be in better conversation over these sorts of things. I think their essence/energies distinctions is very helpful here. As commonly stated, it clearly violates divine simplicity, but in my own readings on the subjects (which is more than just cursory), I tend to think the gap here is not entirely unbridgeable. May be a solution in search of a problem, but, again, when you want to talk about deification, the resources from their side are a little more intuitive.


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 Post subject: Re: Is God creating from nothing a logical contradiction?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:33 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
God's essence is to exist. If we share in His essence in that way, then we are no longer distinct from Him.


You said, “...in that way,”

In what way? Through our act of existing? I’d have to think about that more but I was saying we share in His Essence by a created likeness - grace, not by our act of existence.


Last edited by Strider on Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Is God creating from nothing a logical contradiction?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:44 pm 
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Isn’t sanctifying grace a created “likeness” of God?

If yes, and if God is His Essence, then sanctifying grace is a created “likeness” of His Essence, and so of course, sanctifying grace is not something uncreated and is not His Essence.

The East differs here. These energies they maintain are uncreated but are distinct from His Essence which makes no sense. Anything that exists and is uncreated is God Who is His Essence


Last edited by Strider on Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Is God creating from nothing a logical contradiction?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:17 pm 
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I’ll get back to this tomorrow.


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 Post subject: Re: Is God creating from nothing a logical contradiction?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:20 pm 
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Strider wrote:
Isn’t sanctifying grace a created “likeness” of God?

Is it? I've never heard that.


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 Post subject: Re: Is God creating from nothing a logical contradiction?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:26 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
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And thus there is a twofold grace: one whereby man himself is united to God, and this is called "sanctifying grace"; the other is that whereby one man cooperates with another in leading him to God, and this gift is called "gratuitous grace," since it is bestowed on a man beyond the capability of nature, and beyond the merit of the person.

https://www.newadvent.org/summa/2111.htm#article1

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Nothing can act beyond its species, since the cause must always be more powerful than its effect. Now the gift of grace surpasses every capability of created nature, since it is nothing short of a partaking of the Divine Nature, which exceeds every other nature. And thus it is impossible that any creature should cause grace. For it is as necessary that [b]God alone should deify, bestowing a partaking of the Divine Nature by a participated likenessas it is impossible that anything save fire should enkindle.

https://www.newadvent.org/summa/2112.htm#article1


Fr. so in this last paragraph from the pickle, grace (sanctifying in this context) here is said to be a created participated likeness of the Divine Nature.


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 Post subject: Re: Is God creating from nothing a logical contradiction?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:38 pm 
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Banned for quoting the pickle.

Your language still needs precision. God exists in a way that is incomparably different from the way we exist--He doesn't just exist more or better, but in a different way. His existence is grounded on nothing else, while ours is grounded on Him.


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 Post subject: Re: Is God creating from nothing a logical contradiction?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:28 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Banned for quoting the pickle.

Someone should write a script that does this automatically. It would also conveniently function as a self-ban if you need a few days away. 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Is God creating from nothing a logical contradiction?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 3:34 pm 
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theJack wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Banned for quoting the pickle.

Someone should write a script that does this automatically. It would also conveniently function as a self-ban if you need a few days away. 8-)


Can we also create a pickle emoji getting squashed by a hammer or foot?


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 Post subject: Re: Is God creating from nothing a logical contradiction?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:34 pm 
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gmor8802 wrote:
Probably because I don't know how to imagine an ex nihilo creation. I have no mental image of how that could possibly be :scratch:
Of course you can't imagine it, neither can I. No one can. You can't imagine the soul either, yet I'm guessing you do not deny that souls exist. As gherkin notes, conceiving and imagining are not the same thing.

gmor8802 wrote:
Every act of creation that I can imagine involves something being turned into something else.
Those, however, are not acts of creation. If I make, say, a toy horse out of clay, I am not 'creating' a toy horse, I am making or shaping it.


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 Post subject: Re: Is God creating from nothing a logical contradiction?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:45 pm 
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Strider wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
He doesn't share His being; that would lead to pantheism.

Not only with respect to the initial act of creation but also with respect to the ongoing existence of the universe, things exist because God wills them to.


By sanctifying grace, we do share in His Being.
No, we do not. As Wisdom 14:21 notes, the name of God, and coincidentally His being, is incommunicable. Aquinas explains our participation in the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4) not as a share in the divine being itself but in as God "bestowing a partaking of the Divine Nature by a participated likeness" (Summa Theologiae I-II, q.112, a.1, corpus).


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 Post subject: Re: Is God creating from nothing a logical contradiction?
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 9:21 pm 
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Closet Catholic wrote:
Strider wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
He doesn't share His being; that would lead to pantheism.

Not only with respect to the initial act of creation but also with respect to the ongoing existence of the universe, things exist because God wills them to.


By sanctifying grace, we do share in His Being.
No, we do not. As Wisdom 14:21 notes, the name of God, and coincidentally His being, is incommunicable. Aquinas explains our participation in the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4) not as a share in the divine being itself but in as God "bestowing a partaking of the Divine Nature by a participated likeness" (Summa Theologiae I-II, q.112, a.1, corpus).


Yup, He makes us God-Like. Or like, little gods:) I think it's time you step out and fly the Gold and Yellow, CC.


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