that is what Luther said

and now 500 yrs removed from Luther, Protestants still believe this once saved always saved nonsense.

I'm sorry, but I know a stupid belief when I see it.

I hve read the whole Bible.. and read and heard it at daily Mass for countless years

so they can't fool me.. But of course, even those who can't say they have read that much of the Word have common sense enough to know that this osas stuff is massively bogus.

in any case, people believe. Society in general believes it.. you can tell by how many people live their lives that they beleive this rot. I mean, people act like God just isn't going to punish them. I have no idea why t hey think that.

some sins like fornication are somewhat understandable because at least w/ those sins, there is presumably some "love" involved albeit misguided love

but sins like.. sorry, but I can't help thinking of that illegal who killed that police officer and the criminal-minded family & friends who protected him on his way back to the border. (BTW: is there a death penalty in Mexico? But if he had made it, would he have been extradicted? )

anyway.. we Christians need to remind people that Jesus said FEW get to Heaven.. and of course if you read the New T carefully you see that He said few CHRISTIANS. I will try to find those passages

You do know that not all Protestants believe in anything even approximating OSAS?

If you actually believe that few Christians get to heaven, you must be in constant fear and trembling that you might not be one of the few. Such a contradiction with the teachings of love, mercy, compassion. Can you imagine if all but a few people truly believed they were almost certainly going to hell for ever? Nobody would ever laugh or smile.

He's using that word again.

yes

well, we can't have a lack of laughing and smiling, can we?

when did Jesus ever say

laugh and smile and cover your own sins with mercy even though God hates sin.. even though God is absolutely holy and there isn't a smidgen of sin in Heaven or even a desire for it


Jesus said FEW find the narrow way and He said few Christians (Lk 13:24, Mt 13-21 and etc)

"We ate and drank in your Presence, you taught in our streets" and what does Jesus say in reply

"Depart from me, you evildoers"

That doesn't say "Christians." That refers to people who heard Him and didn't follow.

not so

those who do not follow him do not go where his presence is

and there are other psgs that speak of.. w ell, there is one that says something like this

"We did mighty deeds in Your name"

and same thing, Jesus says "Depart from me, you evil doers"

maybe they just did mighty deeds when they dang well felt like it.. Sunday Christians? God knows but this is a scary psg

I think you're doing some eisegesis here. I'm not agreeing with Denise; I just don't think the passages you're citing do what you want them to do.

What are you not agreeing with, Obi?

Catechism 1821
We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will. In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere "to the end" and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God's eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ. In hope, the Church prays for "all men to be saved."

How can you hope and pray for all to be saved if you believe that most Christians won't be saved?

And if God is that harsh, how can you have much hope that he won't judge you as harshly as he judges the majority of Christians? How can such beliefs not cause deep despair which in itself is a sin, if I remember correctly?

Sorry, not getting in that discussion right now.

2 Timothy 1:7
For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

Re: op I think that moral laxity is not so much from subscribing to a particular erroneous notion about salvation as much as from not thinking about the last things at all.

Do you really think that saying that something is 'a stupid belief' is the kind of compelling argument that will lead anyone to change his mind?

The idea that most Christians will not be saved is likely true, in so much if what you consider to be a "Christian" is someone who is validly baptized. Especially in the Catholic Church where many see baptism as some sort of magic potion. Now, before some of you cry fowl, of course I don't think any of you here believe that, but I bet you all know many parents who get their kids baptized, confirmed and then raise "Chreasters."

To be fair to Luther here, I believe his tongue was firmly planted in cheek.

I don’t pretend to be the most knowledgeable person in this forum, but I feel confident in making a guess as to what caused the demise of our hypothetical subject. Twenty times in one day?!?

for one thing, you assume too much when you say (I will copy/paste it here) How can you hope and pray for all to be saved if you believe that most Christians won't be saved?

makes no sense. Maybe you just want to accuse me of being.. whatever? God knows

you don't beleive a person can be damned but then someone prays for him/her and the person gets on the right track? That is the reason we pray. I never said that those on their way to hell STAY there.. never remotely implied it.

and I do feel God "judges me harshly".. In the Bible, which i have read (the whole thing, many parts over and over) we are told God is a "tough taskmaster." Anyone who has tried to diligently follow Jesus knows that it is not easy.

I am not saying that followers of Jesus do good works and if they fail in such.. they will be tossed into Hell, should they die before correcting themselves.. never said anything like that.

i don't r eally understand what you are getting out. But essentially Luther taught that no matter what sin, even mortal sin (obviously.. adultery)we commit after 'being saved' we will still go to Heaven. That is heresy and blashphemy. Jesus said "Go and sin no more"

he never said to embrace our sins, as luther basically did.. not even CLOSE

I was once in the Real Presence Exposed (you trust such a Presence, don't you?) and it seems the Lord was telling me that if a p erson commits a certain sin over and over, even though he keeps repenting of it, at some point, his repentance will not do any good because he has seriously damaged himself.. his soul.

That was a very scary moment and I canot prove this was Jesus. It could have been the Enemy but I was shown also that.. I was shown just how certain sins damage us.. no small damage either..

so I don't know.. but I don't think we should take chances with such things.. Sin DOES alter us for the w orst

for whatever it is worth, it did not seem like Satan showing me these things, but I won't say it was or was not.. only God knows

it seems to work for Trump



reporter asks question (wish I could remember it)

Trump says

Stupid question

laugh