Fr. James Martin - Homosexuality/Ceremonial Laws

p.falk · **Posted:** Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:35 pm

I was listening to a speech by Fr. James Martin in which people were able to ask him questions and concerns they had.
One lady asked him how progressive young people who want to be Catholic can rectify the Catholic Church's position on gay marriages and homosexual behavior in general with their progressive view points on those topics.

Now I have seen clips of Fr. James Martin where he just comes across kind of as a pluralistic doofus saying things like "attempts at converting another is just pious nonsense" (said to Penn Jillette on a show on MSBNC... or was it CNN?). And that's bad enough, but he did attempt to justify it to some degree where it didn't sound as loopy (it was still loopy).

But in this speech I was blown away at hearing him actually vocalizing his position on gay marriage/homosexual behavior. When asked how to rectify the two (progressive view point and the Church's teaching) he starts by using the usuary example, but then he actually read the "Letter to Doctor Laura"... smug look on his face the whole time to the giddy laughter of the audience.

The content of the letter is here:

Quote:

Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law.
I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. ... End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Law and how to follow them.
1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord -- Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.
4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
5. I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. The passage clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there “degrees” of abomination?
7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?
9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend).
He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16). Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help.
Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging

My jaw dropped. This priest who is regularly trotted out as a representative of the Catholic Church gets to make these kind of public statements with no consequences at all?

I've heard this letter read many times by others, I've heard the criticisms of it's actually impact many times. But to have a respected Catholic priest read it in response to the Church's position on that topic and watching his effeminate lip curl in pleasure at saying "God's word is eternal and unchanging" just drives me up a wall.

Jack3 · **Posted:** Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:58 pm

p.falk wrote:

I was listening to a speech by Fr. James Martin

p.falk · **Posted:** Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:04 pm

Jack3 wrote:

p.falk wrote:

I was listening to a speech by Fr. James Martin

How does he get this kind of impunity?
What's the standard where the Church steps in?
How much force do we need in order for the catapult to help Fr. Martin reach the nearest body of water?

Obi-Wan Kenobi · **Posted:** Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:32 pm

Fr. Martin's superiors don't appear to be interested in restraining him.

Doom · **Posted:** Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:43 pm

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:

Fr. Martin's superiors don't appear to be interested in restraining him.

His superiors are other Jesuits, who all agree with him. I think it may be time to suppress the Jesuit order again for a few decades, maybe then they will get the hint.

Pro Ecclesia Dei · **Posted:** Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:41 pm

Martin is a heretic and a whore of Satan, as is Weakland, as is...

I am tired of pretending to have any communion with those that manifestly do not have the faith.

And frankly, I think we should care less about these whoresons, and more about the mortal peril they present to others. Not only those whose ears they tickle, but also the superiors in the Church who, in mortal violation of their obligations, give superficial credence by, against their grave duty, refusing to censure them

Jack3 · **Posted:** Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:25 am

The conservative Catholic satire site Eccles is saved sometimes writes about Fr Martin.
http://ecclesandbosco.blogspot.com

Peregrinator · **Posted:** Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:51 am

Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:

And frankly, I think we should care less about these whoresons, and more about the mortal peril they present to others. Not only those whose ears they tickle, but also the superiors in the Church who, in mortal violation of their obligations, give superficial credence by, against their grave duty, refusing to censure them

And by the principle of subsidiarity, if those superiors can't or won't censure Fr. Martin and his ilk, it falls to their superiors, and so on. If only we had a visible head of the Church with immediate universal jurisdiction who could do something!

Doom · **Posted:** Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:54 am

Peregrinator wrote:

If only we had a visible head of the Church with immediate universal jurisdiction who could do something!

He is only interested in punishing people who uphold traditional Catholicism such as Cardinals Burke and Mueller.

Pro-Zak · **Posted:** Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:27 am

Seems to me we've heard this rhetorical nonsense before...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CPjWd4MUXs

EtcumSpiri22-0 · **Posted:** Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:41 pm

Obi-Wan Kenobi · **Posted:** Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:56 pm

Quote:

falls

Rises, surely.

Pro-Zak · **Posted:** Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:58 pm

Doom wrote:

Peregrinator wrote:

If only we had a visible head of the Church with immediate universal jurisdiction who could do something!

He is only interested in punishing people who uphold traditional Catholicism such as Cardinals Burke and Mueller.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/glo ... a9789400ef

Doom · **Posted:** Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:29 pm

Sabbath wrote:

Doom wrote:

Peregrinator wrote:

If only we had a visible head of the Church with immediate universal jurisdiction who could do something!

He is only interested in punishing people who uphold traditional Catholicism such as Cardinals Burke and Mueller.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/glo ... a9789400ef

By 'far right' the author means 'people who believe in the Catholicism that existed before March 13, 2013, when Francis was elected.;

EtcumSpiri22-0 · **Posted:** Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:19 pm

I'm beginning to understand Martin Luther's predicament.

kage_ar · **Posted:** Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:01 pm

p.falk wrote:

I was listening to a speech by Fr. James Martin in which people were able to ask him questions and concerns they had.
One lady asked him how progressive young people who want to be Catholic can rectify the Catholic Church's position on gay marriages and homosexual behavior in general with their progressive view points on those topics.

Now I have seen clips of Fr. James Martin where he just comes across kind of as a pluralistic doofus saying things like "attempts at converting another is just pious nonsense" (said to Penn Jillette on a show on MSBNC... or was it CNN?). And that's bad enough, but he did attempt to justify it to some degree where it didn't sound as loopy (it was still loopy).

But in this speech I was blown away at hearing him actually vocalizing his position on gay marriage/homosexual behavior. When asked how to rectify the two (progressive view point and the Church's teaching) he starts by using the usuary example, but then he actually read the "Letter to Doctor Laura"... smug look on his face the whole time to the giddy laughter of the audience.

The content of the letter is here:

Quote:

Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law.
I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. ... End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Law and how to follow them.
1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord -- Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.
4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
5. I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. The passage clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there “degrees” of abomination?
7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?
9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend).
He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16). Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help.
Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging

My jaw dropped. This priest who is regularly trotted out as a representative of the Catholic Church gets to make these kind of public statements with no consequences at all?

I've heard this letter read many times by others, I've heard the criticisms of it's actually impact many times. But to have a respected Catholic priest read it in response to the Church's position on that topic and watching his effeminate lip curl in pleasure at saying "God's word is eternal and unchanging" just drives me up a wall.

Link?

GKC · **Joined:** Thu Feb 20, 2003 10:22 pm **Posts:** 19656

kage_ar wrote:

p.falk wrote:

I was listening to a speech by Fr. James Martin in which people were able to ask him questions and concerns they had.
One lady asked him how progressive young people who want to be Catholic can rectify the Catholic Church's position on gay marriages and homosexual behavior in general with their progressive view points on those topics.

Now I have seen clips of Fr. James Martin where he just comes across kind of as a pluralistic doofus saying things like "attempts at converting another is just pious nonsense" (said to Penn Jillette on a show on MSBNC... or was it CNN?). And that's bad enough, but he did attempt to justify it to some degree where it didn't sound as loopy (it was still loopy).

But in this speech I was blown away at hearing him actually vocalizing his position on gay marriage/homosexual behavior. When asked how to rectify the two (progressive view point and the Church's teaching) he starts by using the usuary example, but then he actually read the "Letter to Doctor Laura"... smug look on his face the whole time to the giddy laughter of the audience.

The content of the letter is here:

Quote:

Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law.
I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. ... End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Law and how to follow them.
1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord -- Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.
4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
5. I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. The passage clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there “degrees” of abomination?
7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?
9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend).
He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16). Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help.
Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging

My jaw dropped. This priest who is regularly trotted out as a representative of the Catholic Church gets to make these kind of public statements with no consequences at all?

I've heard this letter read many times by others, I've heard the criticisms of it's actually impact many times. But to have a respected Catholic priest read it in response to the Church's position on that topic and watching his effeminate lip curl in pleasure at saying "God's word is eternal and unchanging" just drives me up a wall.

Link?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rf6QDDs ... be&t=5m45s

ForeverFaithful · **Posted:** Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:01 am

Sabbath wrote:

Seems to me we've heard this rhetorical nonsense before...

Oh you mean from Horus

Pro-Zak · **Posted:** Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:05 am

ForeverFaithful wrote:

Sabbath wrote:

Seems to me we've heard this rhetorical nonsense before...

Oh you mean from Horus

Of chorus! :mrgreen:

Highlander · **Posted:** Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:15 am

All I can say to this is that, during the process of conversion, a priest told me that, if I was coming to Catholicism as a refuge from progressive modernity and pseudo-Christianity, then I was coming to the wrong place.

It also reminds me of the way some excommunicated priest in Phoenix was treated by the press. Several articles on his tribulations with the Church, on his positions of various progressive social issues, and his general righteousness. Not a work about contrary Church positions.

Fr. James Martin - Homosexuality/Ceremonial Laws

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