Translate this .. from motu proprio Stella Maris

tAnGo · **Posted:** Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:07 pm

II. § 1. Hoc in documento accipiuntur nomine:
a) navigantium, ii qui in navibus mercaturae ratione vel piscatus reperiuntur, atque etiam qui quamlibet ob rationem iter maritimum susceperunt.

this is partially translated in the english document as: ...""..and all who for whatever reason have undertaken a voyage by ship..."

I contend that this does NOT have an exclusively 'past tense' sense to it, but rather, a 'current tense' sense... as in, "I have undertaken this voyage to find gold!" ...

What say the collective brain trust?

Obi-Wan Kenobi · **Posted:** Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:12 pm

I agree with gherkin tAnGo.

tAnGo · **Posted:** Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:16 am

it's present perfect tense, is it not? (at least the english is... I just don't know how to do latin verbs)

or at least ... is it fair to say that this "have undertaken" part in latin is NOT in the (simple) past tense?

lbt · **Posted:** Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:22 am

tAnGo wrote:

it's present perfect tense, is it not? (at least the english is... I just don't know how to do latin verbs)

or at least ... is it fair to say that this "have undertaken" part in latin is NOT in the (simple) past tense?

It's in perfect tense. The perfect tense in Latin might be translated in two ways: the past simple ("I did") or the present completed ("I have done").

Principal parts of suscipio (third conjugation of verbs ending with "io"):

suscipio
suscipere
suscepi
susceptus

The perfect tense is formed by using the third principal part with "i" dropped. Then add:

1st person, single: -i
2nd person, single: -isti
3rd person, single: -it

1st person, plural: -imus
2nd person, plural: -istis
3rd person, plural: -erunt (or -ere)

Thus, the perfect tense for third person plural can be either "susceperunt" or "suscepere".

tAnGo · **Posted:** Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:43 am

what dictates whether it should be -erunt or -ere?

tAnGo · **Posted:** Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:43 pm

oh.. and another question...

atque etiam qui quamlibet ob rationem iter maritimum susceperunt.

... how does this translate, literally?

The english document renders that as "and all who for whatever reason have undertaken a voyage by ship"

How accurate is the english?

lbt · **Posted:** Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:26 pm

tAnGo wrote:

what dictates whether it should be -erunt or -ere?

I believe -ere is an alternate of -erunt.

lbt · **Posted:** Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:35 pm

atque = and
etiam = also
qui = who
quamlibet = as much as you please
ob = for
rationem = reason
iter = trip / journey / voyage
maritimum = maritime (adjective)
susceperunt = have undertaken

Obi-Wan Kenobi · **Posted:** Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:14 pm

lbt wrote:

tAnGo wrote:

what dictates whether it should be -erunt or -ere?

I believe -ere is an alternate of -erunt.

You believe correctly. IIRC, -ere is a late Latin shortening of the original ending.

tAnGo · **Posted:** Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:13 pm

thanks guys...

Translate this .. from motu proprio Stella Maris

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