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 Post subject: Re: What is the Biblical basis for confessing to a priest?
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2022 10:03 pm 
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anawim wrote:
DogDude wrote:
John 20:23 is Jesus giving instructions to the apostles. It says nothing about using an intercessory to receive forgiveness from God. I also believe that it's a reach to assume that what Jesus said to the apostle on this occasion also applies to church leaders.

Is it the Catholic belief that Matthew 16:19, given by Jesus to the apostles, also applies to the Catholic Church and that, therefore, the Church has a license to implement any doctrine that it sees fit?

Matthew 16:19
English Standard Version
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed[a] in heaven.”


So what do you think the apostles were if not intercessors? Catholics believe that their authority has been handed down as it describes in 2 Tim. 2:2 "And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well."
Paul, an apostle had instructed Timothy, who is being told to entrust to others, who will in turn pass that down to the next generation. That's 4 generations.

Quote:
It's nice to share one's moral failures with others so that they can pray for us and support us in our efforts to stay on the narrow path. However, I don't see where followers of Jesus are commanded to confess to a religious leader. If one wants to talk to a priest, that's certainly ok with me, but I don't see the Biblical basis for requiring confession to a priest or any other church leader.

James 5:16
English Standard Version
16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.[a]


I certainly don't think anyone but a priest, who is appointed as leader, would even be sufficient, let alone qualified.



None of that speaks to Christians needing a human intercessory to ask God for forgiveness.


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 Post subject: Re: What is the Biblical basis for confessing to a priest?
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2022 12:42 am 
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The Didache:
“Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure” (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).

The Letter of Barnabas:
“You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light” (Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).

Ignatius of Antioch:
“For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ” (Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 110]).

“For where there is division and wrath, God does not dwell. To all them that repent, the Lord grants forgiveness, if they turn in penitence to the unity of God, and to communion with the bishop” (ibid., 8).

Irenaeus: “[The Gnostic disciples of Marcus] have deluded many women. . . . Some of these women make a public confession, but others are ashamed to do this, and in silence, as if withdrawing from themselves the hope of the life of God, they either apostatize entirely or hesitate between the two courses” (Against Heresies 1:22 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian: “[Regarding confession, some] flee from this work as being an exposure of themselves, or they put it off from day to day. I presume they are more mindful of modesty than of salvation, like those who contract a disease in the more shameful parts of the body and shun making themselves known to the physicians; and thus they perish along with their own bashfulness” (Repentance 10:1 [A.D. 203]).

Hippolytus

“[The bishop conducting the ordination of the new bishop shall pray:] God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. . . . Pour forth now that power which comes from you, from your royal Spirit, which you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, and which he bestowed upon his holy apostles . . . and grant this your servant, whom you have chosen for the episcopate, [the power] to feed your holy flock and to serve without blame as your high priest, ministering night and day to propitiate unceasingly before your face and to offer to you the gifts of your holy Church, and by the Spirit of the high priesthood to have the authority to forgive sins, in accord with your command” (Apostolic Tradition 3 [A.D. 215]).

Origen: “[A final method of forgiveness], albeit hard and laborious [is] the remission of sins through penance, when the sinner . . . does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord and from seeking medicine, after the manner of him who say, ‘I said, “To the Lord I will accuse myself of my iniquity”’” (Homilies on Leviticus 2:4 [A.D. 248]).

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Last edited by aussie_aussie_oi_oi on Sun May 08, 2022 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What is the Biblical basis for confessing to a priest?
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2022 5:27 am 
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aussie_aussie_oi_oi wrote:
The Didache:
“Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure” (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).

The Letter of Barnabas:
“You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light” (Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).

Ignatius of Antioch:
“For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ” (Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 110]).

“For where there is division and wrath, God does not dwell. To all them that repent, the Lord grants forgiveness, if they turn in penitence to the unity of God, and to communion with the bishop” (ibid., 8).

Irenaeus: “[The Gnostic disciples of Marcus] have deluded many women. . . . Some of these women make a public confession, but others are ashamed to do this, and in silence, as if withdrawing from themselves the hope of the life of God, they either apostatize entirely or hesitate between the two courses” (Against Heresies 1:22 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian: “[Regarding confession, some] flee from this work as being an exposure of themselves, or they put it off from day to day. I presume they are more mindful of modesty than of salvation, like those who contract a disease in the more shameful parts of the body and shun making themselves known to the physicians; and thus they perish along with their own bashfulness” (Repentance 10:1 [A.D. 203]).
Hippolytus

“[The bishop conducting the ordination of the new bishop shall pray:] God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. . . . Pour forth now that power which comes from you, from your royal Spirit, which you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, and which he bestowed upon his holy apostles . . . and grant this your servant, whom you have chosen for the episcopate, [the power] to feed your holy flock and to serve without blame as your high priest, ministering night and day to propitiate unceasingly before your face and to offer to you the gifts of your holy Church, and by the Spirit of the high priesthood to have the authority to forgive sins, in accord with your command” (Apostolic Tradition 3 [A.D. 215]).

Origen: “[A final method of forgiveness], albeit hard and laborious [is] the remission of sins through penance, when the sinner . . . does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord and from seeking medicine, after the manner of him who say, ‘I said, “To the Lord I will accuse myself of my iniquity”’” (Homilies on Leviticus 2:4 [A.D. 248]).


I understand that these writings are not in the Bible. Are they recognized by the Catholic Church?


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 Post subject: Re: What is the Biblical basis for confessing to a priest?
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2022 9:55 am 
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DogDude wrote:
None of that speaks to Christians needing a human intercessory to ask God for forgiveness.


We have, and need intercessors for many things. Scripture is not perspicuous. It needs an interpreter:

"speaking of these things as he [Paul] does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures." ~2 Pt. 3:16

"For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity,[literally= itchy ears] will accumulate teachers
and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths." ~ 2 Tim. 4:3 - 4

We rely on the Church to show us the truth. We rely on our appointed leaders to administer the sacraments, including Reconciliation.

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 Post subject: Re: What is the Biblical basis for confessing to a priest?
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2022 8:48 pm 
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DogDude wrote:
aussie_aussie_oi_oi wrote:
The Didache:
“Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure” (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).

The Letter of Barnabas:
“You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light” (Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).

Ignatius of Antioch:
“For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ” (Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 110]).

“For where there is division and wrath, God does not dwell. To all them that repent, the Lord grants forgiveness, if they turn in penitence to the unity of God, and to communion with the bishop” (ibid., 8).

Irenaeus: “[The Gnostic disciples of Marcus] have deluded many women. . . . Some of these women make a public confession, but others are ashamed to do this, and in silence, as if withdrawing from themselves the hope of the life of God, they either apostatize entirely or hesitate between the two courses” (Against Heresies 1:22 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian: “[Regarding confession, some] flee from this work as being an exposure of themselves, or they put it off from day to day. I presume they are more mindful of modesty than of salvation, like those who contract a disease in the more shameful parts of the body and shun making themselves known to the physicians; and thus they perish along with their own bashfulness” (Repentance 10:1 [A.D. 203]).
Hippolytus

“[The bishop conducting the ordination of the new bishop shall pray:] God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. . . . Pour forth now that power which comes from you, from your royal Spirit, which you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, and which he bestowed upon his holy apostles . . . and grant this your servant, whom you have chosen for the episcopate, [the power] to feed your holy flock and to serve without blame as your high priest, ministering night and day to propitiate unceasingly before your face and to offer to you the gifts of your holy Church, and by the Spirit of the high priesthood to have the authority to forgive sins, in accord with your command” (Apostolic Tradition 3 [A.D. 215]).

Origen: “[A final method of forgiveness], albeit hard and laborious [is] the remission of sins through penance, when the sinner . . . does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord and from seeking medicine, after the manner of him who say, ‘I said, “To the Lord I will accuse myself of my iniquity”’” (Homilies on Leviticus 2:4 [A.D. 248]).


I understand that these writings are not in the Bible. Are they recognized by the Catholic Church?


Yes both Catholic and Orthodox recognize the teaching of the early Church Fathers as being authentic interpreters of the oral tradition along with the Bible.

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 Post subject: Re: What is the Biblical basis for confessing to a priest?
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 8:07 am 
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I attended mass every Sunday for many years and also attended Catholic schools from first to 12th grade and they never discussed any of these "early writings".

In any event, there is no apparent Biblical justification for needing a priest to apologize to God for our sins. Although I will say that requiring a priest must have been good for church attendance, participation, and, most importantly, revenue.


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 Post subject: Re: What is the Biblical basis for confessing to a priest?
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 10:22 am 
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DogDude wrote:
I attended mass every Sunday for many years and also attended Catholic schools from first to 12th grade and they never discussed any of these "early writings".

In any event, there is no apparent Biblical justification for needing a priest to apologize to God for our sins. Although I will say that requiring a priest must have been good for church attendance, participation, and, most importantly, revenue.



No mention of any of the early church Fathers?

Fascinating.

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 Post subject: Re: What is the Biblical basis for confessing to a priest?
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 10:45 am 
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GKC wrote:
DogDude wrote:
I attended mass every Sunday for many years and also attended Catholic schools from first to 12th grade and they never discussed any of these "early writings".

In any event, there is no apparent Biblical justification for needing a priest to apologize to God for our sins. Although I will say that requiring a priest must have been good for church attendance, participation, and, most importantly, revenue.



No mention of any of the early church Fathers?

Fascinating.


None that I can recall.


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 Post subject: Re: What is the Biblical basis for confessing to a priest?
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 10:46 am 
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On another note, was Pope Urban VI a quality intercessory to God?


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 Post subject: Re: What is the Biblical basis for confessing to a priest?
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 11:40 am 
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DogDude wrote:
On another note, was Pope Urban VI a quality intercessory to God?



I suspect this is meant intercessory in a sacramental sense, and Urban VI for specific reasons.

If so, Donatism.

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 Post subject: Re: What is the Biblical basis for confessing to a priest?
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 12:13 pm 
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GKC wrote:
DogDude wrote:
On another note, was Pope Urban VI a quality intercessory to God?



I suspect this is meant intercessory in a sacramental sense, and Urban VI for specific reasons.

If so, Donatism.


I was alluding to the faulty view (in my opinion) that the Pope is somehow the direct spiritual descendant of Jesus here on Earth.


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 Post subject: Re: What is the Biblical basis for confessing to a priest?
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 12:51 pm 
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DogDude wrote:
GKC wrote:
DogDude wrote:
On another note, was Pope Urban VI a quality intercessory to God?



I suspect this is meant intercessory in a sacramental sense, and Urban VI for specific reasons.

If so, Donatism.


I was alluding to the faulty view (in my opinion) that the Pope is somehow the direct spiritual descendant of Jesus here on Earth.



The "somehow" leaves considerable wobble room. And, as so expressed, I am not familiar with the formulation. Can you source it, as so stated, in some RCC document?

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 Post subject: Re: What is the Biblical basis for confessing to a priest?
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 1:18 pm 
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GKC wrote:
DogDude wrote:
GKC wrote:
DogDude wrote:
On another note, was Pope Urban VI a quality intercessory to God?



I suspect this is meant intercessory in a sacramental sense, and Urban VI for specific reasons.

If so, Donatism.


I was alluding to the faulty view (in my opinion) that the Pope is somehow the direct spiritual descendant of Jesus here on Earth.



The "somehow" leaves considerable wobble room. And, as so expressed, I am not familiar with the formulation. Can you source it, as so stated, in some RCC document?



Nope.

What do you believe is the Pope's standing with regard to Jesus?


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 Post subject: Re: What is the Biblical basis for confessing to a priest?
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 1:42 pm 
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DogDude wrote:
GKC wrote:
DogDude wrote:
GKC wrote:
DogDude wrote:
On another note, was Pope Urban VI a quality intercessory to God?



I suspect this is meant intercessory in a sacramental sense, and Urban VI for specific reasons.

If so, Donatism.


I was alluding to the faulty view (in my opinion) that the Pope is somehow the direct spiritual descendant of Jesus here on Earth.



The "somehow" leaves considerable wobble room. And, as so expressed, I am not familiar with the formulation. Can you source it, as so stated, in some RCC document?



Nope.

What do you believe is the Pope's standing with regard to Jesus?


A sinner in His eyes, as are all of us. And the successor of St. Peter, as to the Church,

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 Post subject: Re: What is the Biblical basis for confessing to a priest?
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 3:08 pm 
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GKC wrote:
A sinner in His eyes, as are all of us. And the successor of St. Peter, as to the Church,


It's more than that. Isn't the Pope considered "infallible" on matters of faith?


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 Post subject: Re: What is the Biblical basis for confessing to a priest?
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 3:18 pm 
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DogDude wrote:
GKC wrote:
A sinner in His eyes, as are all of us. And the successor of St. Peter, as to the Church,


It's more than that. Isn't the Pope considered "infallible" on matters of faith?


Not exactly. Under specified conditions as set forth in Vat 1.

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Last edited by GKC on Mon May 09, 2022 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What is the Biblical basis for confessing to a priest?
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 3:27 pm 
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GKC wrote:
DogDude wrote:
GKC wrote:
A sinner in His eyes, as are all of us. And the successor of St. Peter, as to the Church,


It's more than that. Isn't the Pope considered "infallible" on matters of faith?


Not exactly. Under specified conditions are set forth in Vat 1.


In any event, the various Popes throughout history, including the current Pope, have aptly demonstrated to me that they're just mortal men with no authority under Christ whatsoever. The Church has many teachings that they made up and which have nothing to do with any commandments given by Christ. I'm glad that I woke up to the false doctrines of the Church.


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 Post subject: Re: What is the Biblical basis for confessing to a priest?
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 3:31 pm 
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DogDude wrote:
GKC wrote:
DogDude wrote:
GKC wrote:
A sinner in His eyes, as are all of us. And the successor of St. Peter, as to the Church,


It's more than that. Isn't the Pope considered "infallible" on matters of faith?


Not exactly. Under specified conditions are set forth in Vat 1.


In any event, the various Popes throughout history, including the current Pope, have aptly demonstrated to me that they're just mortal men with no authority under Christ whatsoever. The Church has many teachings that they made up and which have nothing to do with any commandments given by Christ. I'm glad that I woke up to the false doctrines of the Church.


OK.

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 Post subject: Re: What is the Biblical basis for confessing to a priest?
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 4:20 pm 
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This is clearly not a 101 thread. Moving to apologetics.

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 Post subject: Re: What is the Biblical basis for confessing to a priest?
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 4:38 pm 
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DogDude wrote:
GKC wrote:
DogDude wrote:
GKC wrote:
A sinner in His eyes, as are all of us. And the successor of St. Peter, as to the Church,


It's more than that. Isn't the Pope considered "infallible" on matters of faith?


Not exactly. Under specified conditions are set forth in Vat 1.


In any event, the various Popes throughout history, including the current Pope, have aptly demonstrated to me that they're just mortal men with no authority under Christ whatsoever. The Church has many teachings that they made up and which have nothing to do with any commandments given by Christ. I'm glad that I woke up to the false doctrines of the Church.

Which false doctrines are you talking about?

It's one thing to say "false doctrine" and another thing to list that "false doctrine" and defend your judgement.


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