What is the Biblical basis for confessing to a priest?

Vern Humphrey · **Posted:** Mon May 09, 2022 4:43 pm

DogDude wrote:

aussie_aussie_oi_oi wrote:

The Didache:
“Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure” (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).

The Letter of Barnabas:
“You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light” (Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).

Ignatius of Antioch:
“For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ” (Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 110]).

“For where there is division and wrath, God does not dwell. To all them that repent, the Lord grants forgiveness, if they turn in penitence to the unity of God, and to communion with the bishop” (ibid., 8).

Irenaeus: “[The Gnostic disciples of Marcus] have deluded many women. . . . Some of these women make a public confession, but others are ashamed to do this, and in silence, as if withdrawing from themselves the hope of the life of God, they either apostatize entirely or hesitate between the two courses” (Against Heresies 1:22 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian: “[Regarding confession, some] flee from this work as being an exposure of themselves, or they put it off from day to day. I presume they are more mindful of modesty than of salvation, like those who contract a disease in the more shameful parts of the body and shun making themselves known to the physicians; and thus they perish along with their own bashfulness” (Repentance 10:1 [A.D. 203]).
Hippolytus

“[The bishop conducting the ordination of the new bishop shall pray:] God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. . . . Pour forth now that power which comes from you, from your royal Spirit, which you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, and which he bestowed upon his holy apostles . . . and grant this your servant, whom you have chosen for the episcopate, [the power] to feed your holy flock and to serve without blame as your high priest, ministering night and day to propitiate unceasingly before your face and to offer to you the gifts of your holy Church, and by the Spirit of the high priesthood to have the authority to forgive sins, in accord with your command” (Apostolic Tradition 3 [A.D. 215]).

Origen: “[A final method of forgiveness], albeit hard and laborious [is] the remission of sins through penance, when the sinner . . . does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord and from seeking medicine, after the manner of him who say, ‘I said, “To the Lord I will accuse myself of my iniquity”’” (Homilies on Leviticus 2:4 [A.D. 248]).

I understand that these writings are not in the Bible. Are they recognized by the Catholic Church?

John 20,22-23:22When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained

Jesus himself gives the power to forgive sins to his Apostles. Is that biblical enough for you?

DogDude · **Posted:** Mon May 09, 2022 8:16 pm

Vern Humphrey wrote:

DogDude wrote:

aussie_aussie_oi_oi wrote:

The Didache:
“Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure” (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).

The Letter of Barnabas:
“You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light” (Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).

Ignatius of Antioch:
“For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ” (Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 110]).

“For where there is division and wrath, God does not dwell. To all them that repent, the Lord grants forgiveness, if they turn in penitence to the unity of God, and to communion with the bishop” (ibid., 8).

Irenaeus: “[The Gnostic disciples of Marcus] have deluded many women. . . . Some of these women make a public confession, but others are ashamed to do this, and in silence, as if withdrawing from themselves the hope of the life of God, they either apostatize entirely or hesitate between the two courses” (Against Heresies 1:22 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian: “[Regarding confession, some] flee from this work as being an exposure of themselves, or they put it off from day to day. I presume they are more mindful of modesty than of salvation, like those who contract a disease in the more shameful parts of the body and shun making themselves known to the physicians; and thus they perish along with their own bashfulness” (Repentance 10:1 [A.D. 203]).
Hippolytus

“[The bishop conducting the ordination of the new bishop shall pray:] God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. . . . Pour forth now that power which comes from you, from your royal Spirit, which you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, and which he bestowed upon his holy apostles . . . and grant this your servant, whom you have chosen for the episcopate, [the power] to feed your holy flock and to serve without blame as your high priest, ministering night and day to propitiate unceasingly before your face and to offer to you the gifts of your holy Church, and by the Spirit of the high priesthood to have the authority to forgive sins, in accord with your command” (Apostolic Tradition 3 [A.D. 215]).

Origen: “[A final method of forgiveness], albeit hard and laborious [is] the remission of sins through penance, when the sinner . . . does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord and from seeking medicine, after the manner of him who say, ‘I said, “To the Lord I will accuse myself of my iniquity”’” (Homilies on Leviticus 2:4 [A.D. 248]).

I understand that these writings are not in the Bible. Are they recognized by the Catholic Church?

John 20,22-23:22When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained

Jesus himself gives the power to forgive sins to his Apostles. Is that biblical enough for you?

So anything Jesus ascribed to the apostles also applies to Catholic priests? That's quite a leap but, if that's what you believe, then that's ok with me. Can non-Catholic Christian leaders also claim that inheritance?

DogDude · **Posted:** Mon May 09, 2022 8:18 pm

Vern Humphrey wrote:

DogDude wrote:

GKC wrote:

DogDude wrote:

GKC wrote:

A sinner in His eyes, as are all of us. And the successor of St. Peter, as to the Church,

It's more than that. Isn't the Pope considered "infallible" on matters of faith?

Not exactly. Under specified conditions are set forth in Vat 1.

In any event, the various Popes throughout history, including the current Pope, have aptly demonstrated to me that they're just mortal men with no authority under Christ whatsoever. The Church has many teachings that they made up and which have nothing to do with any commandments given by Christ. I'm glad that I woke up to the false doctrines of the Church.

Which false doctrines are you talking about?

It's one thing to say "false doctrine" and another thing to list that "false doctrine" and defend your judgement.

I did. I don't believe that a priest is required to obtain forgiveness from God for sins.

kage_ar · **Posted:** Tue May 10, 2022 3:32 pm

DogDude wrote:

Vern Humphrey wrote:

DogDude wrote:

aussie_aussie_oi_oi wrote:

The Didache:
“Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure” (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).

The Letter of Barnabas:
“You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light” (Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).

Ignatius of Antioch:
“For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ” (Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 110]).

“For where there is division and wrath, God does not dwell. To all them that repent, the Lord grants forgiveness, if they turn in penitence to the unity of God, and to communion with the bishop” (ibid., 8).

Irenaeus: “[The Gnostic disciples of Marcus] have deluded many women. . . . Some of these women make a public confession, but others are ashamed to do this, and in silence, as if withdrawing from themselves the hope of the life of God, they either apostatize entirely or hesitate between the two courses” (Against Heresies 1:22 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian: “[Regarding confession, some] flee from this work as being an exposure of themselves, or they put it off from day to day. I presume they are more mindful of modesty than of salvation, like those who contract a disease in the more shameful parts of the body and shun making themselves known to the physicians; and thus they perish along with their own bashfulness” (Repentance 10:1 [A.D. 203]).
Hippolytus

“[The bishop conducting the ordination of the new bishop shall pray:] God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. . . . Pour forth now that power which comes from you, from your royal Spirit, which you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, and which he bestowed upon his holy apostles . . . and grant this your servant, whom you have chosen for the episcopate, [the power] to feed your holy flock and to serve without blame as your high priest, ministering night and day to propitiate unceasingly before your face and to offer to you the gifts of your holy Church, and by the Spirit of the high priesthood to have the authority to forgive sins, in accord with your command” (Apostolic Tradition 3 [A.D. 215]).

Origen: “[A final method of forgiveness], albeit hard and laborious [is] the remission of sins through penance, when the sinner . . . does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord and from seeking medicine, after the manner of him who say, ‘I said, “To the Lord I will accuse myself of my iniquity”’” (Homilies on Leviticus 2:4 [A.D. 248]).

I understand that these writings are not in the Bible. Are they recognized by the Catholic Church?

John 20,22-23:22When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained

Jesus himself gives the power to forgive sins to his Apostles. Is that biblical enough for you?

So anything Jesus ascribed to the apostles also applies to Catholic priests? That's quite a leap but, if that's what you believe, then that's ok with me. Can non-Catholic Christian leaders also claim that inheritance?

Pt 1: Apostolic Succession is just what it says. The First Bishops ordained priests and some became bishops who ordained priests and some became bishops who ordained priests on and on for 2000ish years.

Pt 2: Validly ordained Anglicans do become Catholic priests through the Ordinariate. https://ordinariate.net/q-a

DogDude · **Posted:** Tue May 10, 2022 4:34 pm

So then let me ask the following question about apostolic succession. Do the teachings of the Pope, a cardinal, bishop, or priest carry the same weight as a teaching given by Christ or one of the original apostles?

GKC · **Joined:** Thu Feb 20, 2003 10:22 pm **Posts:** 19973

kage_ar wrote:

DogDude wrote:

Vern Humphrey wrote:

DogDude wrote:

aussie_aussie_oi_oi wrote:

The Didache:
“Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure” (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).

The Letter of Barnabas:
“You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light” (Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).

Ignatius of Antioch:
“For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ” (Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 110]).

“For where there is division and wrath, God does not dwell. To all them that repent, the Lord grants forgiveness, if they turn in penitence to the unity of God, and to communion with the bishop” (ibid., 8).

Irenaeus: “[The Gnostic disciples of Marcus] have deluded many women. . . . Some of these women make a public confession, but others are ashamed to do this, and in silence, as if withdrawing from themselves the hope of the life of God, they either apostatize entirely or hesitate between the two courses” (Against Heresies 1:22 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian: “[Regarding confession, some] flee from this work as being an exposure of themselves, or they put it off from day to day. I presume they are more mindful of modesty than of salvation, like those who contract a disease in the more shameful parts of the body and shun making themselves known to the physicians; and thus they perish along with their own bashfulness” (Repentance 10:1 [A.D. 203]).
Hippolytus

“[The bishop conducting the ordination of the new bishop shall pray:] God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. . . . Pour forth now that power which comes from you, from your royal Spirit, which you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, and which he bestowed upon his holy apostles . . . and grant this your servant, whom you have chosen for the episcopate, [the power] to feed your holy flock and to serve without blame as your high priest, ministering night and day to propitiate unceasingly before your face and to offer to you the gifts of your holy Church, and by the Spirit of the high priesthood to have the authority to forgive sins, in accord with your command” (Apostolic Tradition 3 [A.D. 215]).

Origen: “[A final method of forgiveness], albeit hard and laborious [is] the remission of sins through penance, when the sinner . . . does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord and from seeking medicine, after the manner of him who say, ‘I said, “To the Lord I will accuse myself of my iniquity”’” (Homilies on Leviticus 2:4 [A.D. 248]).

I understand that these writings are not in the Bible. Are they recognized by the Catholic Church?

John 20,22-23:22When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained

Jesus himself gives the power to forgive sins to his Apostles. Is that biblical enough for you?

So anything Jesus ascribed to the apostles also applies to Catholic priests? That's quite a leap but, if that's what you believe, then that's ok with me. Can non-Catholic Christian leaders also claim that inheritance?

Pt 1: Apostolic Succession is just what it says. The First Bishops ordained priests and some became bishops who ordained priests and some became bishops who ordained priests on and on for 2000ish years.

Pt 2: Validly ordained Anglicans do become Catholic priests through the Ordinariate. https://ordinariate.net/q-a

Anglican priests who have become ordained RC priests do so by being ordained, absolutely. I do know of two such priests who were ordained sub conditione, both preceding Anglicanorum coetibus. Details.

kage_ar · **Posted:** Wed May 11, 2022 7:48 am

DogDude wrote:

So then let me ask the following question about apostolic succession. Do the teachings of the Pope, a cardinal, bishop, or priest carry the same weight as a teaching given by Christ or one of the original apostles?

Any Pope, cardinal, bishop or priest (or Sunday School teacher or next-door neighbor or stranger on TV) who teaches contrary to the teachings of Christ/His Church is teaching falsehoods.

Vern Humphrey · **Posted:** Wed May 11, 2022 12:41 pm

DogDude wrote:

So then let me ask the following question about apostolic succession. Do the teachings of the Pope, a cardinal, bishop, or priest carry the same weight as a teaching given by Christ or one of the original apostles?

In what sense? How do you measure "weight?"

The teachings of the Catholic Bishops, world-wide are free of error.

DogDude · **Posted:** Wed May 11, 2022 1:01 pm

As a former Catholic and now a follower of the Biblical Christ, I believe that all we really need to follow is the Great Commandment. I believe that being a follower of Christ is about a personal relationship with him and following the narrow path and being kind to those around us. Beyond that, I don't believe it matters. Do you agree?

Vern Humphrey · **Posted:** Wed May 11, 2022 1:05 pm

DogDude wrote:

Vern Humphrey wrote:

DogDude wrote:

aussie_aussie_oi_oi wrote:

The Didache:
“Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure” (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).

The Letter of Barnabas:
“You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light” (Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).

Ignatius of Antioch:
“For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ” (Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 110]).

“For where there is division and wrath, God does not dwell. To all them that repent, the Lord grants forgiveness, if they turn in penitence to the unity of God, and to communion with the bishop” (ibid., 8).

Irenaeus: “[The Gnostic disciples of Marcus] have deluded many women. . . . Some of these women make a public confession, but others are ashamed to do this, and in silence, as if withdrawing from themselves the hope of the life of God, they either apostatize entirely or hesitate between the two courses” (Against Heresies 1:22 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian: “[Regarding confession, some] flee from this work as being an exposure of themselves, or they put it off from day to day. I presume they are more mindful of modesty than of salvation, like those who contract a disease in the more shameful parts of the body and shun making themselves known to the physicians; and thus they perish along with their own bashfulness” (Repentance 10:1 [A.D. 203]).
Hippolytus

“[The bishop conducting the ordination of the new bishop shall pray:] God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. . . . Pour forth now that power which comes from you, from your royal Spirit, which you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, and which he bestowed upon his holy apostles . . . and grant this your servant, whom you have chosen for the episcopate, [the power] to feed your holy flock and to serve without blame as your high priest, ministering night and day to propitiate unceasingly before your face and to offer to you the gifts of your holy Church, and by the Spirit of the high priesthood to have the authority to forgive sins, in accord with your command” (Apostolic Tradition 3 [A.D. 215]).

Origen: “[A final method of forgiveness], albeit hard and laborious [is] the remission of sins through penance, when the sinner . . . does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord and from seeking medicine, after the manner of him who say, ‘I said, “To the Lord I will accuse myself of my iniquity”’” (Homilies on Leviticus 2:4 [A.D. 248]).

I understand that these writings are not in the Bible. Are they recognized by the Catholic Church?

John 20,22-23:22When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained

Jesus himself gives the power to forgive sins to his Apostles. Is that biblical enough for you?

So anything Jesus ascribed to the apostles also applies to Catholic priests? That's quite a leap but, if that's what you believe, then that's ok with me. Can non-Catholic Christian leaders also claim that inheritance?

You're advancing the theory that Jesus meant His religion to cease with the death of the last Apostle. That doesn't make sense. Of course He meant His church to last until the End Times. And that means the authority of the Apostles lives on in their successors.

How could it be otherwise?

DogDude · **Posted:** Wed May 11, 2022 3:42 pm

No, I'm not advancing such a theory. I simply don't believe that those who came after the apostles all had/have the same authority and supernatural gifts. It's certainly not Biblical. The idea of apostolic succession is something the Catholic Church invented, in my humble opinion. To say that today's Catholic priests have the same authority and gifts as the original apostles is not believable to me. No offense.

Light of the East · **Posted:** Thu May 12, 2022 11:52 am

DogDude wrote:

No, I'm not advancing such a theory. I simply don't believe that those who came after the apostles all had/have the same authority and supernatural gifts. It's certainly not Biblical. The idea of apostolic succession is something the Catholic Church invented, in my humble opinion. To say that today's Catholic priests have the same authority and gifts as the original apostles is not believable to me. No offense.

You say this because you do not understand the principles of a covenant. There are five principles of a covenant relationship. They are:

Transcendence - The greater offers covenant to the lesser. In this case, God comes to us and offers covenant to us.

Hierarchy - Who is in charge here? Every covenant structure has a headship. In the covenant of God with His people, Christ Jesus is the covenant head.

Ethics - What are the rules of the covenant? Every covenant made is made within an ethical framework. There are certain behaviors which are expected and certain ones which are prohibited. Think of the 10 Commandments as a set of covenant ethics.

Oaths & Sanctions - Promises made by both parties to keep the ethics to which they are bound. Sanctions are the consequences of breaking the covenant ethics. Look at Deuteronomy 28 and 29 to see this in action. God tells the Israelites what blessings they will have by obeying Him (ethics) and what curse will come upon them for disobedience.

Succession - the covenant relationship is passed down from generation to generation. We see this in such things as the continuance of the offices of priest and high priest in the OT. Even in political (Suzerainty) covenants, in which there is a king (covenant head) over the nation, that office of kingship passes on to the next generation.

Christians are people of the Covenant of God. As such, the covenant rules and principles apply. Our baptism is the making of covenant with Christ. We are entered into Him (Romans 6:3) and in this relationship, we are blessed by obedience, and receive sanctions if we disobey. These sanctions may take place in this life, or in the next, but they are sure as the covenant in Christ's Blood is sure.

I understand that you do not understand this at all because most people of all religious persuasions (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant) do not understand covenant principles or how they work. This is a sad commentary on the quality of Christian education, since the word "covenant" appears over 300 times in the Bible and we are living in the New Covenant of God.

BTW- this information is from Ray Sutton's book THAT YOU MAY PROSPER, which is a Protestant publication.

GKC · **Joined:** Thu Feb 20, 2003 10:22 pm **Posts:** 19973

Light of the East wrote:

DogDude wrote:

No, I'm not advancing such a theory. I simply don't believe that those who came after the apostles all had/have the same authority and supernatural gifts. It's certainly not Biblical. The idea of apostolic succession is something the Catholic Church invented, in my humble opinion. To say that today's Catholic priests have the same authority and gifts as the original apostles is not believable to me. No offense.

You say this because you do not understand the principles of a covenant. There are five principles of a covenant relationship. They are:

Transcendence - The greater offers covenant to the lesser. In this case, God comes to us and offers covenant to us.

Hierarchy - Who is in charge here? Every covenant structure has a headship. In the covenant of God with His people, Christ Jesus is the covenant head.

Ethics - What are the rules of the covenant? Every covenant made is made within an ethical framework. There are certain behaviors which are expected and certain ones which are prohibited. Think of the 10 Commandments as a set of covenant ethics.

Oaths & Sanctions - Promises made by both parties to keep the ethics to which they are bound. Sanctions are the consequences of breaking the covenant ethics. Look at Deuteronomy 28 and 29 to see this in action. God tells the Israelites what blessings they will have by obeying Him (ethics) and what curse will come upon them for disobedience.

Succession - the covenant relationship is passed down from generation to generation. We see this in such things as the continuance of the offices of priest and high priest in the OT. Even in political (Suzerainty) covenants, in which there is a king (covenant head) over the nation, that office of kingship passes on to the next generation.

Christians are people of the Covenant of God. As such, the covenant rules and principles apply. Our baptism is the making of covenant with Christ. We are entered into Him (Romans 6:3) and in this relationship, we are blessed by obedience, and receive sanctions if we disobey. These sanctions may take place in this life, or in the next, but they are sure as the covenant in Christ's Blood is sure.

I understand that you do not understand this at all because most people of all religious persuasions (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant) do not understand covenant principles or how they work. This is a sad commentary on the quality of Christian education, since the word "covenant" appears over 300 times in the Bible and we are living in the New Covenant of God.

BTW- this information is from Ray Sutton's book THAT YOU MAY PROSPER, which is a Protestant publication.

Until I read the last sentence, I wondered if that was where you were taking it from.

DogDude · **Posted:** Thu May 12, 2022 8:44 pm

Light of the East wrote:

DogDude wrote:

No, I'm not advancing such a theory. I simply don't believe that those who came after the apostles all had/have the same authority and supernatural gifts. It's certainly not Biblical. The idea of apostolic succession is something the Catholic Church invented, in my humble opinion. To say that today's Catholic priests have the same authority and gifts as the original apostles is not believable to me. No offense.

You say this because you do not understand the principles of a covenant. There are five principles of a covenant relationship. They are:

Transcendence - The greater offers covenant to the lesser. In this case, God comes to us and offers covenant to us.

Hierarchy - Who is in charge here? Every covenant structure has a headship. In the covenant of God with His people, Christ Jesus is the covenant head.

Ethics - What are the rules of the covenant? Every covenant made is made within an ethical framework. There are certain behaviors which are expected and certain ones which are prohibited. Think of the 10 Commandments as a set of covenant ethics.

Oaths & Sanctions - Promises made by both parties to keep the ethics to which they are bound. Sanctions are the consequences of breaking the covenant ethics. Look at Deuteronomy 28 and 29 to see this in action. God tells the Israelites what blessings they will have by obeying Him (ethics) and what curse will come upon them for disobedience.

Succession - the covenant relationship is passed down from generation to generation. We see this in such things as the continuance of the offices of priest and high priest in the OT. Even in political (Suzerainty) covenants, in which there is a king (covenant head) over the nation, that office of kingship passes on to the next generation.

Christians are people of the Covenant of God. As such, the covenant rules and principles apply. Our baptism is the making of covenant with Christ. We are entered into Him (Romans 6:3) and in this relationship, we are blessed by obedience, and receive sanctions if we disobey. These sanctions may take place in this life, or in the next, but they are sure as the covenant in Christ's Blood is sure.

I understand that you do not understand this at all because most people of all religious persuasions (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant) do not understand covenant principles or how they work. This is a sad commentary on the quality of Christian education, since the word "covenant" appears over 300 times in the Bible and we are living in the New Covenant of God.

BTW- this information is from Ray Sutton's book THAT YOU MAY PROSPER, which is a Protestant publication.

Is this Biblical?

kage_ar · **Posted:** Fri May 13, 2022 11:07 am

DogDude wrote:

Light of the East wrote:

DogDude wrote:

No, I'm not advancing such a theory. I simply don't believe that those who came after the apostles all had/have the same authority and supernatural gifts. It's certainly not Biblical. The idea of apostolic succession is something the Catholic Church invented, in my humble opinion. To say that today's Catholic priests have the same authority and gifts as the original apostles is not believable to me. No offense.

You say this because you do not understand the principles of a covenant. There are five principles of a covenant relationship. They are:

Transcendence - The greater offers covenant to the lesser. In this case, God comes to us and offers covenant to us.

Hierarchy - Who is in charge here? Every covenant structure has a headship. In the covenant of God with His people, Christ Jesus is the covenant head.

Ethics - What are the rules of the covenant? Every covenant made is made within an ethical framework. There are certain behaviors which are expected and certain ones which are prohibited. Think of the 10 Commandments as a set of covenant ethics.

Oaths & Sanctions - Promises made by both parties to keep the ethics to which they are bound. Sanctions are the consequences of breaking the covenant ethics. Look at Deuteronomy 28 and 29 to see this in action. God tells the Israelites what blessings they will have by obeying Him (ethics) and what curse will come upon them for disobedience.

Succession - the covenant relationship is passed down from generation to generation. We see this in such things as the continuance of the offices of priest and high priest in the OT. Even in political (Suzerainty) covenants, in which there is a king (covenant head) over the nation, that office of kingship passes on to the next generation.

Christians are people of the Covenant of God. As such, the covenant rules and principles apply. Our baptism is the making of covenant with Christ. We are entered into Him (Romans 6:3) and in this relationship, we are blessed by obedience, and receive sanctions if we disobey. These sanctions may take place in this life, or in the next, but they are sure as the covenant in Christ's Blood is sure.

I understand that you do not understand this at all because most people of all religious persuasions (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant) do not understand covenant principles or how they work. This is a sad commentary on the quality of Christian education, since the word "covenant" appears over 300 times in the Bible and we are living in the New Covenant of God.

BTW- this information is from Ray Sutton's book THAT YOU MAY PROSPER, which is a Protestant publication.

Is this Biblical?

God has been part of a Covenant relationship with man since His covenant with Noah. Did they skip that in 12 years of Catholic School?

DogDude · **Posted:** Sun May 15, 2022 12:18 pm

kage_ar wrote:

DogDude wrote:

Light of the East wrote:

DogDude wrote:

No, I'm not advancing such a theory. I simply don't believe that those who came after the apostles all had/have the same authority and supernatural gifts. It's certainly not Biblical. The idea of apostolic succession is something the Catholic Church invented, in my humble opinion. To say that today's Catholic priests have the same authority and gifts as the original apostles is not believable to me. No offense.

You say this because you do not understand the principles of a covenant. There are five principles of a covenant relationship. They are:

Transcendence - The greater offers covenant to the lesser. In this case, God comes to us and offers covenant to us.

Hierarchy - Who is in charge here? Every covenant structure has a headship. In the covenant of God with His people, Christ Jesus is the covenant head.

Ethics - What are the rules of the covenant? Every covenant made is made within an ethical framework. There are certain behaviors which are expected and certain ones which are prohibited. Think of the 10 Commandments as a set of covenant ethics.

Oaths & Sanctions - Promises made by both parties to keep the ethics to which they are bound. Sanctions are the consequences of breaking the covenant ethics. Look at Deuteronomy 28 and 29 to see this in action. God tells the Israelites what blessings they will have by obeying Him (ethics) and what curse will come upon them for disobedience.

Succession - the covenant relationship is passed down from generation to generation. We see this in such things as the continuance of the offices of priest and high priest in the OT. Even in political (Suzerainty) covenants, in which there is a king (covenant head) over the nation, that office of kingship passes on to the next generation.

Christians are people of the Covenant of God. As such, the covenant rules and principles apply. Our baptism is the making of covenant with Christ. We are entered into Him (Romans 6:3) and in this relationship, we are blessed by obedience, and receive sanctions if we disobey. These sanctions may take place in this life, or in the next, but they are sure as the covenant in Christ's Blood is sure.

I understand that you do not understand this at all because most people of all religious persuasions (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant) do not understand covenant principles or how they work. This is a sad commentary on the quality of Christian education, since the word "covenant" appears over 300 times in the Bible and we are living in the New Covenant of God.

BTW- this information is from Ray Sutton's book THAT YOU MAY PROSPER, which is a Protestant publication.

Is this Biblical?

God has been part of a Covenant relationship with man since His covenant with Noah. Did they skip that in 12 years of Catholic School?

I feel your anger.

GKC · **Joined:** Thu Feb 20, 2003 10:22 pm **Posts:** 19973

DogDude wrote:

kage_ar wrote:

DogDude wrote:

Light of the East wrote:

DogDude wrote:

No, I'm not advancing such a theory. I simply don't believe that those who came after the apostles all had/have the same authority and supernatural gifts. It's certainly not Biblical. The idea of apostolic succession is something the Catholic Church invented, in my humble opinion. To say that today's Catholic priests have the same authority and gifts as the original apostles is not believable to me. No offense.

You say this because you do not understand the principles of a covenant. There are five principles of a covenant relationship. They are:

Transcendence - The greater offers covenant to the lesser. In this case, God comes to us and offers covenant to us.

Hierarchy - Who is in charge here? Every covenant structure has a headship. In the covenant of God with His people, Christ Jesus is the covenant head.

Ethics - What are the rules of the covenant? Every covenant made is made within an ethical framework. There are certain behaviors which are expected and certain ones which are prohibited. Think of the 10 Commandments as a set of covenant ethics.

Oaths & Sanctions - Promises made by both parties to keep the ethics to which they are bound. Sanctions are the consequences of breaking the covenant ethics. Look at Deuteronomy 28 and 29 to see this in action. God tells the Israelites what blessings they will have by obeying Him (ethics) and what curse will come upon them for disobedience.

Succession - the covenant relationship is passed down from generation to generation. We see this in such things as the continuance of the offices of priest and high priest in the OT. Even in political (Suzerainty) covenants, in which there is a king (covenant head) over the nation, that office of kingship passes on to the next generation.

Christians are people of the Covenant of God. As such, the covenant rules and principles apply. Our baptism is the making of covenant with Christ. We are entered into Him (Romans 6:3) and in this relationship, we are blessed by obedience, and receive sanctions if we disobey. These sanctions may take place in this life, or in the next, but they are sure as the covenant in Christ's Blood is sure.

I understand that you do not understand this at all because most people of all religious persuasions (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant) do not understand covenant principles or how they work. This is a sad commentary on the quality of Christian education, since the word "covenant" appears over 300 times in the Bible and we are living in the New Covenant of God.

BTW- this information is from Ray Sutton's book THAT YOU MAY PROSPER, which is a Protestant publication.

Is this Biblical?

God has been part of a Covenant relationship with man since His covenant with Noah. Did they skip that in 12 years of Catholic School?

I feel your anger.

I think, rather, skepticism.

kage_ar · **Posted:** Mon May 16, 2022 9:49 am

DogDude wrote:

I feel your anger.

No anger, I am dumbfounded that a person could claim many years of Catholic instruction, then also claim Protestant instruction, and not be aware of the Covenants of God.

GKC · **Joined:** Thu Feb 20, 2003 10:22 pm **Posts:** 19973

kage_ar wrote:

DogDude wrote:

I feel your anger.

No anger, I am dumbfounded that a person could claim many years of Catholic instruction, then also claim Protestant instruction, and not be aware of the Covenants of God.

Maybe skeptical, even.

Peetem · **Posted:** Mon May 16, 2022 7:16 pm

Dogdude -

Three questions

1) Are you a Bible-believing Christian who holds that His word is holy, infallible, and worthy of instruction?

2) Do you believe that the Bible is the pillar of truth and contains all the knowledge and teaching we need to answer any question necessary for salvation?

3) Lastly, I provided several scripture verses for the Catholic (and most Christian’s) understanding of mortal and venial sins (that is, sin which lead to death and sin which does not). You simply left a comment about the Catholic interpretation of scripture (you strongly implied we are wrong). I would be interested in knowing, how do you interpret those verses and why?

Thanks!

What is the Biblical basis for confessing to a priest?

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