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 Post subject: Do you think children that die via miscarriage are saved?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:54 pm 
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Hi all,

Had a question on unborn children that die before they are born by miscarriage for example. Obviously they never got the chance to be baptised.
CCC1261 talks about these children and basically says that we can only hope and entrust them to God's mercy.
CCC1257 says that while we are bound to the sacrament, God himself is not.

In light of this, is it more likely that these babies are in heaven? Can baptism of desire apply to them via their parents? Especially if they were Catholic?
Some saints didn't think they would be saved, many thought they would be in limbo or in an outer realm of hell where they wouldn't suffer the severe punishment of the damned but still, they weren't in heaven.
Though nowadays, I hear people in Catholic ministry who have suffered miscarriage say things like "I am a father/mother of 4 on earth and 2 in heaven" or something along those lines.

Would we put someone who is invincibly ignorant, ie. was never baptised and committed personal sins on the same level of uncertainty as these children who were not baptised but never committed personal sins?

I assume it would be best to still pray for the salvation of these children's souls? Should we refrain from asking for their prayers since we don't know if they're in heaven?

Thanks everyone.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you think children that die via miscarriage are saved
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2022 7:51 pm 
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I seem to recall years ago getting threatened with a ban over this subject because I was charged with being emotionally manipulative. ::): In the mod's defense, they didn't know me well then and didn't realize that I actually respect Catholic tradition, even in my disagreement.

I doubt you'll get more of an answer than you've already suggested. If I were Catholic, this would be a huge stumbling block for me, I think. I know what I'd say -- I'd tell people it's a mystery, that God hasn't revealed it, and that we have to trust God is just and merciful and cares even more than we do. But the fact that it was the pronouncements of theologians that was putting me in that spot . . . that would bother me.

Hopefully someone here has come far enough along they can address this more clearly. I'd still be interested in a more reasonable (my assessment, of course) claim than they go to the nice part of hell--you know, the part with natural happiness but just missing out on the vision of God. :-/


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 Post subject: Re: Do you think children that die via miscarriage are saved
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2022 9:51 am 
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theJack wrote:
I seem to recall years ago getting threatened with a ban over this subject because I was charged with being emotionally manipulative. ::): In the mod's defense, they didn't know me well then and didn't realize that I actually respect Catholic tradition, even in my disagreement.

I doubt you'll get more of an answer than you've already suggested. If I were Catholic, this would be a huge stumbling block for me, I think. I know what I'd say -- I'd tell people it's a mystery, that God hasn't revealed it, and that we have to trust God is just and merciful and cares even more than we do. But the fact that it was the pronouncements of theologians that was putting me in that spot . . . that would bother me.

Hopefully someone here has come far enough along they can address this more clearly. I'd still be interested in a more reasonable (my assessment, of course) claim than they go to the nice part of hell--you know, the part with natural happiness but just missing out on the vision of God. :-/


Speculative theology is, at times, taken for the real thing; that can be confusing.

I am sure that our infinitely perfect Lord knows exactly what to do in any circumstance.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you think children that die via miscarriage are saved
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2022 7:46 pm 
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In Orthodoxy, we teach that all people go to be with Christ/God. There is no such place as "hell" or "limbo."

The wicked will find that being in the presence of Christ is torment.

The redeemed will find that same presence to be bliss.

Why?

Because the wicked are those who have willingly chosen sin, participated in it, made it part of their lives, and have not repented, many of them after several calls to repentance by Christian people, pastors, priests, etc. Their choice of evil creates in them an ontological reality in which sin is their life, and in the presence of Christ, they cannot hide their sin, excuse it away, or run from God.

Since unborn infants have no sin, the presence of Christ can only be an experience of His love to them. They have not made a cognitive choice of evil, have no love of wickedness, and are free of sin.

The Orthodox answer is a definitive yes.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you think children that die via miscarriage are saved
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2022 12:25 pm 
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gmor8802 wrote:
Hi all,

Had a question on unborn children that die before they are born by miscarriage for example. Obviously they never got the chance to be baptised.
CCC1261 talks about these children and basically says that we can only hope and entrust them to God's mercy.
CCC1257 says that while we are bound to the sacrament, God himself is not.

In light of this, is it more likely that these babies are in heaven? Can baptism of desire apply to them via their parents? Especially if they were Catholic?
Some saints didn't think they would be saved, many thought they would be in limbo or in an outer realm of hell where they wouldn't suffer the severe punishment of the damned but still, they weren't in heaven.
Though nowadays, I hear people in Catholic ministry who have suffered miscarriage say things like "I am a father/mother of 4 on earth and 2 in heaven" or something along those lines.

Would we put someone who is invincibly ignorant, ie. was never baptised and committed personal sins on the same level of uncertainty as these children who were not baptised but never committed personal sins?

I assume it would be best to still pray for the salvation of these children's souls? Should we refrain from asking for their prayers since we don't know if they're in heaven?

Thanks everyone.


It is always best to pray for everyone. I don't make assumptions. Prayers don't have an expiration date. God can use our prayers today and apply them yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

While I can't remember which of the ECF's said this, it may be a possible explanation: unbaptized babies go through a kind of 'baptism of fire". IOW, original sin is burned up while going through a purification.

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A modern day Shunamite woman. (2 Kgs. 4:26)


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 Post subject: Re: Do you think children that die via miscarriage are saved
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2022 1:10 pm 
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As a NON-CATHOLIC, my OPINION is based on scripture and my OPINION is that one's eternal destination is contingent upon whether or not they were "of God" or if there were of the other guy (Satan).

Romans 8:29 ESV
29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Psalm 58:3 ESV
The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.

John 6:44 ESV
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

John 14:17 ESV
Even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

Galatians 4: 28-29 ESV
Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you think children that die via miscarriage are saved
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2022 11:17 am 
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DogDude wrote:
As a NON-CATHOLIC, my OPINION is based on scripture and my OPINION is that one's eternal destination is contingent upon whether or not they were "of God" or if there were of the other guy (Satan).

Romans 8:29 ESV
29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Psalm 58:3 ESV
The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.

John 6:44 ESV
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

John 14:17 ESV
Even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

Galatians 4: 28-29 ESV
Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now.


This does not answer the question.

I lost a child before the child was born. Do you believe my child is saved?

(Just so you understand that I am seeking your HONEST answer, know that I trust my child to the mercy of God and at the same time I believe that those who die without baptism are dying in a state of original sin and it may very well be true that means the child will not have the beatific vision.)


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