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 Post subject: Re: Serious concerns about CCC 1800
PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:16 pm 
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Let's try this again:

Nothing you posted contradicts what I said. A person must follow his conscience, but that does not make what he did right. In the case of a person who is responsible for the ill-formation of his conscience, he sins either way: He either sins committing an act that he should know to be wrong, or he sins by going against the dictates of his conscience.

Looking at it another way:

There are indeed acts that are always objectively wrong. Even if the person who does them is not culpable for them, they are still wrong and increase him in vice rather than in virtue. But a person does not offend God by doing something that he believes with good reason to be right. A person does offend God when he does something that he believes without good reason to be right.

Many people who invoke conscience as an excuse for objectively evil deeds fall into the final category.

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 Post subject: Re: Serious concerns about CCC 1800
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:43 am 
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gherkin wrote:
chrisg93 wrote:
You are right that CCC 1800 is a huge mistake and nobody caught it....

Oh, OK, you're just a troll. I thought at first you were maybe sincerely confused.


This is not a rational response to several Pope's quotations, it is simply insult without basis.


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 Post subject: Re: Serious concerns about CCC 1800
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:38 am 
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@Obi-Wan Kenobi

You asserted: A person must follow his conscience

Answer: “through the hypocrisy of liars whose consciences are seared with a hot iron” 1 Timothy 4:2
A person with a seared conscience must not follow his conscience.

You asserted: In the case of a person who is responsible for the ill-formation of his conscience, he sins either way: He either sins committing an act that he should know to be wrong, or he sins by going against the dictates of his conscience.

Answer: according to you if a pregnant woman believes in conscience that abortion is a “good” and giving birth is an “evil” but she does not have the abortion then she has condemned herself to Hell!!! That is incredibly wrong and against Catholic teaching.

You asserted: There are indeed acts that are always objectively wrong.

Answer: I am not sure what “objectively” wrong is, but “intrinsically evil” acts are forbidden always and everywhere and are culpable.

You asserted: But a person does not offend God by doing something that he believes with good reason to be right. A person does offend God when he does something that he believes without good reason to be right.

Answer: Your comment rightly applies to prudential judgements or lack of certainty but not intrinsic evils. This is confirmed by VS 60… “If man acts against this judgment or, in a case where he lacks certainty about the rightness and goodness of a determined act, still performs that act, he stands condemned by his own conscience, the proximate norm of personal morality”.

Intrinsic evil is never allowed or excused for any reason… "Before the moral norm which prohibits the direct taking of the life of an innocent human being "there are no privileges or exceptions for anyone". Ev 57


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 Post subject: Re: Serious concerns about CCC 1800
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:01 am 
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Can you give any citation from a Catholic source that “intrinsically evil” means what you say? Hint: no, you can’t.

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Last edited by Obi-Wan Kenobi on Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Serious concerns about CCC 1800
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:53 am 
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chrisg93 wrote:
Answer: I am not sure what “objectively” wrong is, but “intrinsically evil” acts are forbidden always and everywhere and are culpable.

Wrong.

Do you think a person who is brought up to believe that some lies are permitted (lying in intrinsically evil) is culpable for every officious lie he tells?

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 Post subject: Re: Serious concerns about CCC 1800
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:39 am 
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In a certain way, the OP is committing the exact error that appears to vex him in others. He seems to be upset (and rightly so) with those who use the primacy of conscience to excuse their departure from Church teaching and refuse to listen to correction. Yet he himself does the same thing. He does not seem to be at all trained in moral theology (else the phrase "objectively wrong" would not be foreign to him, and he would know that his definition of "intrinsically evil" is erroneous), yet he is so adamantly convinced that he is right that he will not listen to those who correct him.

chrisg93, I am confident that no one who has responded to you in this thread approves of Catholics who use conscience to deny moral teachings of the Church. We aren't arguing to get people off the hook. But you misidentify where the dissidents go wrong, and rather than listen to those who try to inform you, you dig in your heels.

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 Post subject: Re: Serious concerns about CCC 1800
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:19 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi

Everything you said to me is vague, generalizations, unsubstantiated, simple disparagement or your own opinion. On the other hand I have substantiated everything written by the Popes. My complaint is against CCC1800 that caused the horrible consequences such as...

“If a person feels with a certain conscience that they must murder another person, then they must murder that person”.
“A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were to deliberately act against it, he would condemn himself. Regina, https://archregina.sk.ca/blogs/31427/39 ... h-teaching.

These are Catholic priests and theologian following CCC1800 in order to promote murder in accord with conscience.

They are justly following CCC1800. To excuse this as just a "bad example" is to miss the point. They and everyone like them is actually and faithfully following CCC1800. How could you not see that ? How could a Catholic theologian say that and publish it world wide. That is how CCC1800 have deceived people. That is the fruit of CCC1800.


Last edited by chrisg93 on Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Serious concerns about CCC 1800
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:24 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Can you give any citation from a Catholic source that “intrinsically evil” means what you say? Hint: no, you can’t.


67 But the negative moral precepts, those prohibiting certain concrete actions or kinds of behaviour as intrinsically evil, do not allow for any legitimate exception. They do not leave room, in any morally acceptable way, for the "creativity" of any contrary determination whatsoever. Once the moral species of an action prohibited by a universal rule is concretely recognized, the only morally good act is that of obeying the moral law and of refraining from the action which it forbids. VS 67

This the Pope's definition of intrinsic evil.


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 Post subject: Re: Serious concerns about CCC 1800
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:06 pm 
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If you didn’t already know, let me inform you that I am a Catholic priest who was trained at a seminary that is well-regarded for orthodox formation. I hate credential-dropping, but I will do it here. I really do know what I’m talking about.

When I get a chance, I will post the relevant material from some older moral theology texts.

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 Post subject: Re: Serious concerns about CCC 1800
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:15 pm 
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BTW, the clause about “once it is concretely recognized” is very important, and you’re ignoring it. The failure to recognize is exactly the failure of an ill-trained conscience.

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Last edited by Obi-Wan Kenobi on Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Serious concerns about CCC 1800
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:54 pm 
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Also BTW, I and everyone else who has argued with you in this thread are greatly offended by abuse of conscience. Your error is to think (insist) that the problem stems from the need to follow conscience. It stems from culpable failure to form the conscience properly.

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 Post subject: Re: Serious concerns about CCC 1800
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:06 pm 
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Jone/Adelman wrote:
A certain conscience must always be obeyed when it commands or forbids. [A "certain conscience" is one that is convinced beyond reasonable doubt.]

This holds for both the right and the erroneous conscience--therefore, if one lies to help a neighbor out of a difficulty, convinced that to do so is an act of charity, he actually does perform a laudable act of fraternal charity; and should he act contrary to his erroneous conscience, he would sin....

A certain conscience may always be followed when it permits something.
(Italics in the original.)

Jone/Adelman is one of the standard pre-Vatican II moral theology manuals. The others contain the same teaching.

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 Post subject: Re: Serious concerns about CCC 1800
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:14 pm 
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I also quote Veritatis Splendor 32:

Quote:
Certain currents of modern thought have gone so far as to exalt freedom to such an extent that it becomes an absolute, which would then be the source of values. This is the direction taken by doctrines which have lost the sense of the transcendent or which are explicitly atheist. The individual conscience is accorded the status of a supreme tribunal of moral judgment which hands down categorical and infallible decisions about good and evil. To the affirmation that one has a duty to follow one's conscience is unduly added the affirmation that one's moral judgment is true merely by the fact that it has its origin in the conscience. But in this way the inescapable claims of truth disappear, yielding their place to a criterion of sincerity, authenticity and "being at peace with oneself", so much so that some have come to adopt a radically subjectivistic conception of moral judgment.
Note that the Holy Father does not dispute the duty to follow one's conscience; he disputes the undue addition which leads to the objectionable abuse of conscience.

Also VS 60:

Quote:
Like the natural law itself and all practical knowledge, the judgment of conscience also has an imperative character: man must act in accordance with it. If man acts against this judgment or, in a case where he lacks certainty about the rightness and goodness of a determined act, still performs that act, he stands condemned by his own conscience, the proximate norm of personal morality.


I encourage you to read the whole of 62-64. The Holy Father himself reiterates what I've been saying.

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 Post subject: Re: Serious concerns about CCC 1800
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:00 pm 
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@ Father Obi-Wan Kenobi

Thank you for the personal introduction. I appreciate it and respect your high standing. As a brief bio I am a cradle Catholic standing on the sidewalk in front of the abortion clinic for 18 years.

1800 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience.

And its sister…

1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself.

These two never say that conscience cannot be followed regarding intrinsic evil. In fact CCC says the opposite - that you must obey your conscience into intrinsic evil. What a horror, what a nightmare, what an atrocity! Following is the true teaching of the Catholic Church denying conscience can be used to admit, accomplish or excuse intrinsic evil.

The sacredness of life gives rise to its inviolability, written from the beginning in man's heart, in his conscience. EV 40

God alone is the Lord of life from its beginning until its end: no one can, in any circumstance, claim for himself the right to destroy directly an innocent human being" EV 53

Before the moral norm which prohibits the direct taking of the life of an innocent human being "there are no privileges or exceptions for anyone. EV 57

The legal toleration of abortion or of euthanasia can in no way claim to be based on respect for the conscience of others EV 71

Christians, like all people of good will, are called upon under grave obligation of conscience not to cooperate formally in practices which, even if permitted by civil legislation, are contrary to God's law. EV 74

The negative moral precepts, which declare that the choice of certain actions is morally unacceptable, have an absolute value for human freedom: they are valid always and everywhere, without exception EV 75

The commandment "You shall not kill", even in its more positive aspects of respecting, loving and promoting human life, is binding on every individual human being. It resounds in the moral conscience of everyone as an irrepressible echo of the original covenant of God the Creator with mankind. It can be recognized by everyone through the light of reason EV 77

Thus my Venerable Predecessor Leo XIII emphasized the essential subordination of reason and human law to the Wisdom of God and to his law. After stating that "the natural law is written and engraved in the heart of each and every man, since it is none other than human reason itself which commands us to do good and counsels us not to sin" VS 44

Positive precepts such as these, which order us to perform certain actions and to cultivate certain dispositions, are universally binding; they are "unchanging" VS 52

On the other hand, the fact that only the negative commandments oblige always and under all circumstances does not mean that in the moral life prohibitions are more important than the obligation to do good indicated by the positive commandments. VS 52

The Church has always taught that one may never choose kinds of behaviour prohibited by the moral commandments expressed in negative form in the Old and New Testaments. VS 52

But the negative moral precepts, those prohibiting certain concrete actions or kinds of behaviour as intrinsically evil, do not allow for any legitimate exception. They do not leave room, in any morally acceptable way, for the "creativity" of any contrary determination whatsoever. Once the moral species of an action prohibited by a universal rule is concretely recognized, the only morally good act is that of obeying the moral law and of refraining from the action which it forbids. VS 67

thus the absolute validity of negative moral precepts, which oblige without exception, was not called into question. VS 76

Consequently, respect for norms which prohibit such acts and oblige semper et pro semper, that is, without any exception VS 82

When it is a matter of the moral norms prohibiting intrinsic evil, there are no privileges or exceptions for anyone. VS 96

Each of us can see the seriousness of what is involved, not only for individuals but also for the whole of society, with the reaffirmation of the universality and immutability of the moral commandments, particularly those which prohibit always and without exception intrinsically evil acts. VS 115

Thank You.


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 Post subject: Re: Serious concerns about CCC 1800
PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 7:50 am 
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I appreciate your sidewalk witness and am grateful for the lives you’ve help to save.

As to the topic at hand, I think I have said all that I can usefully say.

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 Post subject: Re: Serious concerns about CCC 1800
PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 8:09 am 
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“If a person feels with a certain conscience that they must murder another person, then they must murder that person.”

Father, it seems that you agree with this quote above because it follows CCC1800, is that right?


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 Post subject: Re: Serious concerns about CCC 1800
PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 9:56 am 
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chrisg93 wrote:
These two never say that conscience cannot be followed regarding intrinsic evil. In fact CCC says the opposite - that you must obey your conscience into intrinsic evil.

Correct - if (for example) you believe, in conscience, that you must lie (e.g. to save a life), then you must lie, even though lying is intrinsically evil.

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 Post subject: Re: Serious concerns about CCC 1800
PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 3:43 pm 
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Lying is not always intrinsically evil as show by the midwives who lies to King of Egypt and God blessed them for it…

15 Then the king of Egypt spoke to the Hebrew midwives, of whom the name of one was Shiphrah and the name of the other Puah; 16 and he said, "When you do the duties of a midwife for the Hebrew women, and see them on the birthstools, if it is a son, then you shall kill him; but if it is a daughter, then she shall live." 17 But the midwives feared God, and did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the male children alive. 18 So the king of Egypt called for the midwives and said to them, "Why have you done this thing, and saved the male children alive?" 19 And the midwives said to Pharaoh, "Because the Hebrew women are not like the Egyptian women; for they are lively and give birth before the midwives come to them." 20 Therefore God dealt well with the midwives, and the people multiplied and grew very mighty.

This is different than when a Catholic priest says that if a pregnant woman feels, in conscience, that she must have an abortion then she must have an abortion which is intrinsically evil and completely against everything the Catholic Church has ever stood for. To make matters worse he teaches and preaches this defilement to other Catholics, possibly “justifying” some women to have abortions which is always intrinsically evil. If so then he is complicit in baby murder.


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 Post subject: Re: Serious concerns about CCC 1800
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:50 am 
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chrisg93 wrote:
Lying is not always intrinsically evil as show by the midwives who lies to King of Egypt and God blessed them for it…

Lying is intrinsically evil (and thus always objectively wrong). As far as the midwives' lying is concerned, St. Augustine explains (De mendacio): "if a person who is used to tell lies for harm's sake comes to tell them for the sake of doing good, that person has made great progress" and "it is in respect of the promise of growth and proficiency to better things that they while lying are spoken of with approval: because it is some step towards loving the true and eternal saving of the soul, when a person does mercifully for the saving of any man's albeit mortal life even tell a lie."

Quote:
This is different than when a Catholic priest says that if a pregnant woman feels, in conscience, that she must have an abortion then she must have an abortion which is intrinsically evil and completely against everything the Catholic Church has ever stood for. To make matters worse he teaches and preaches this defilement to other Catholics, possibly “justifying” some women to have abortions which is always intrinsically evil. If so then he is complicit in baby murder.

I do not think a Catholic priest would tell a woman that she must have an abortion, I think he would try to help her understand that it is wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Serious concerns about CCC 1800
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:11 am 
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God Himself APPROVED AND REWARDED the midwives for saving babies and lying about it regardless of what anybody else says.

CCC1800 contradicts Evangelium Vitae and the priest agrees with CCC1800…

“The commandment "You shall not kill", even in its more positive aspects of respecting, loving and promoting human life, is binding on every individual human being. It resounds in the moral conscience of everyone as an irrepressible echo of the original covenant of God the Creator with mankind. It can be recognized by everyone through the light of reason” EV 77.

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