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 Post subject: Why Roman Catholicism and not Eastern Orthodoxy and vise ver
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 2:01 pm 
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A few months ago I was in adoration and I was thinking about what Scott Hahn was saying about how he didn't want to stand before God on his day of judgment and tell the Lord "I just believed what I was taught". So I asked God for two things: Show me the truth no matter where it takes me and give me the Grace to follow it. A few months go by and nothing. Then one day I was looking for an Eastern Rite Catholic Church because I've never been to one and the closest one is in New Orleans. In the middle of the search I found an Eastern Orthodox Church in Lafayette LA, and thier website said the Priest goes to a coffee shope every week for anyone who would like to have a conversation. So I figured I would go meet with him to discuss our differences. Having done some studying on my own about the East and West Im even more lost than I was before. I really thought all Orthodox Churches were not in Communion with each other but Fr. Philip (the Orthodox priest) told me they all believe the same thing but have different traditions, traditions with a small t. Also something that bugs me is I saw a diagram that showed Church history where the bottom line showed one united Church then the great schism and the bottom line is straight and says unbroken unchanged Orthodox Church. Then a line coming up that says Catholic Church and a few lines coming off of that one that showed the how the protestant chruch branch from that and branched off into thousands of denmonations. Now what I don't like is the Orthodox Church allows for artificial birth control under certain circumstances. I totally understand the Catholic Churches position on this and I feel like the Orthodox Church is compromising with sin and that scares me. Anyway I am asking for prayers and resources on the whole East and West issue. Keep in mind Im not an intellectual and many of the resources people have given me has confused me even more. I'm trying to listen God with heart as well has my brain. I love Catholic Church and don't want to leave but I want to find the truth. Fr. Philip told me you don't have to be Orthodox to get to Heaven but that's not good enough for me. I want the fullness of truth and I wonder if God has sent Fr Philp in my life to help find the truth.

Thank you all and God Bless!


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 Post subject: Re: Why Roman Catholicism and not Eastern Orthodoxy and vise
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 2:43 pm 
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Coming from a Catholic point of view, you might want to read:

Russia and the Universal Church by Vladimir Soloviev:
-- PDF version online
-- abridged version for sale

Books & articles by James Likoudis:
-- Ending the Byzantine Greco-Slav Schism
-- The Divine Primacy of the Bishop of Rome (his best, in my opinion)
-- Mr. Likoudis's website (containing many short articles)


You may also want to have coffee with a Catholic priest, while you're doing that sort of thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Roman Catholicism and not Eastern Orthodoxy and vise
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 2:56 pm 
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I am meeting with my Parish Priest. Thank you :D


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 Post subject: Re: Why Roman Catholicism and not Eastern Orthodoxy and vise
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 3:52 pm 
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Doom gave a good answer to that a while back, I'll see if I can find it. Don't have anything else to say at the moment other than I could draw that tree a little different.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Roman Catholicism and not Eastern Orthodoxy and vise
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 4:14 pm 
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Cajun_Catholic_Guy wrote:
A few months ago I was in adoration and I was thinking about what Scott Hahn was saying about how he didn't want to stand before God on his day of judgment and tell the Lord "I just believed what I was taught". So I asked God for two things: Show me the truth no matter where it takes me and give me the Grace to follow it. A few months go by and nothing. Then one day I was looking for an Eastern Rite Catholic Church because I've never been to one and the closest one is in New Orleans. In the middle of the search I found an Eastern Orthodox Church in Lafayette LA, and thier website said the Priest goes to a coffee shope every week for anyone who would like to have a conversation. So I figured I would go meet with him to discuss our differences. Having done some studying on my own about the East and West Im even more lost than I was before. I really thought all Orthodox Churches were not in Communion with each other but Fr. Philip (the Orthodox priest) told me they all believe the same thing but have different traditions, traditions with a small t. Also something that bugs me is I saw a diagram that showed Church history where the bottom line showed one united Church then the great schism and the bottom line is straight and says unbroken unchanged Orthodox Church. Then a line coming up that says Catholic Church and a few lines coming off of that one that showed the how the protestant chruch branch from that and branched off into thousands of denmonations. Now what I don't like is the Orthodox Church allows for artificial birth control under certain circumstances. I totally understand the Catholic Churches position on this and I feel like the Orthodox Church is compromising with sin and that scares me. Anyway I am asking for prayers and resources on the whole East and West issue. Keep in mind Im not an intellectual and many of the resources people have given me has confused me even more. I'm trying to listen God with heart as well has my brain. I love Catholic Church and don't want to leave but I want to find the truth. Fr. Philip told me you don't have to be Orthodox to get to Heaven but that's not good enough for me. I want the fullness of truth and I wonder if God has sent Fr Philp in my life to help find the truth.

Thank you all and God Bless!
Sometimes I think we over complicate our belief. It doesn't require much theological sophistication to have a foundation of belief.

BTW, I think if you saw a chart created by the Catholic Church which showed the Great Schism, it would be the Orthodox Church that branched off.

Finally, I can't speak with authority, but I remember that not some, but not all, Orthodox churches are in communion.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Roman Catholicism and not Eastern Orthodoxy and vise
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 4:32 pm 
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Highlander wrote:
Cajun_Catholic_Guy wrote:
A few months ago I was in adoration and I was thinking about what Scott Hahn was saying about how he didn't want to stand before God on his day of judgment and tell the Lord "I just believed what I was taught". So I asked God for two things: Show me the truth no matter where it takes me and give me the Grace to follow it. A few months go by and nothing. Then one day I was looking for an Eastern Rite Catholic Church because I've never been to one and the closest one is in New Orleans. In the middle of the search I found an Eastern Orthodox Church in Lafayette LA, and thier website said the Priest goes to a coffee shope every week for anyone who would like to have a conversation. So I figured I would go meet with him to discuss our differences. Having done some studying on my own about the East and West Im even more lost than I was before. I really thought all Orthodox Churches were not in Communion with each other but Fr. Philip (the Orthodox priest) told me they all believe the same thing but have different traditions, traditions with a small t. Also something that bugs me is I saw a diagram that showed Church history where the bottom line showed one united Church then the great schism and the bottom line is straight and says unbroken unchanged Orthodox Church. Then a line coming up that says Catholic Church and a few lines coming off of that one that showed the how the protestant chruch branch from that and branched off into thousands of denmonations. Now what I don't like is the Orthodox Church allows for artificial birth control under certain circumstances. I totally understand the Catholic Churches position on this and I feel like the Orthodox Church is compromising with sin and that scares me. Anyway I am asking for prayers and resources on the whole East and West issue. Keep in mind Im not an intellectual and many of the resources people have given me has confused me even more. I'm trying to listen God with heart as well has my brain. I love Catholic Church and don't want to leave but I want to find the truth. Fr. Philip told me you don't have to be Orthodox to get to Heaven but that's not good enough for me. I want the fullness of truth and I wonder if God has sent Fr Philp in my life to help find the truth.

Thank you all and God Bless!
Sometimes I think we over complicate our belief. It doesn't require much theological sophistication to have a foundation of belief.

BTW, I think if you saw a chart created by the Catholic Church which showed the Great Schism, it would be the Orthodox Church that branched off.

Finally, I can't speak with authority, but I remember that not some, but not all, Orthodox churches are in communion.

Well from what Fr Philp said is there are those not in Communion who are "old clanderist" much like the extreme traditionalists that we have in the West.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Roman Catholicism and not Eastern Orthodoxy and vise
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 4:45 pm 
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viewtopic.php?f=1&t=153596&hilit=orthodox&start=0


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 Post subject: Re: Why Roman Catholicism and not Eastern Orthodoxy and vise
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 4:52 pm 
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I hate to besmirch a Christian priest of any sort, so I hope either that you misunderstood him or that he is simply poorly informed, but whatever is the case, what you describe is simply not accurate.

Here's a small sample: http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/ ... odox-unity


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 Post subject: Re: Why Roman Catholicism and not Eastern Orthodoxy and vise
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 5:09 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I hate to besmirch a Christian priest of any sort, so I hope either that you misunderstood him or that he is simply poorly informed, but whatever is the case, what you describe is simply not accurate.

Here's a small sample: http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/ ... odox-unity


It just shows the greatness of Christ in establishing Peter's office.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Roman Catholicism and not Eastern Orthodoxy and vise
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 6:10 pm 
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Quote:
I really thought all Orthodox Churches were not in Communion with each other but Fr. Philip (the Orthodox priest) told me they all believe the same thing but have different traditions, traditions with a small t.


We attended Greek and Antiochean churches when my wife was contemplating a conversion to Orthodoxy. What this priest says is simply not true.

Please note the thread linked by Bombadil and Fr. Kenobi's article for more info.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Roman Catholicism and not Eastern Orthodoxy and vise
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 6:24 pm 
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http://thebananarepublican1.wordpress.c ... antinople/


I like this one:

    9. On 6/8/1439, the agreement (Latin cedula) on the procession of the Holy Spirit was freely signed by all the Eastern bishops at the Ecumenical Council of Florence–except the lone dissenter Metropolitan Mark Eugenikos of Ephesus–including, most importantly, Patriarch Joseph II of Constantinople († 6/10/1439) and the patriarchal legates, with the permission of Patriarchs Philotheos of Alexandria († 1459), Dorotheos II of Antioch († 1454), and Joachim of Jerusalem († 1450?). Therefore, the Eastern Orthodox Church dogmatically agreed at an Ecumenical Council that the Catholic doctrine on the procession of the Holy Spirit, hitherto dogmatically rejected by the Eastern Orthodox Church, is true. All five Patriarchates were Catholic before the after-the-fact nonsensical repudiation instigated by Metropolitan Mark Eugenikos of Ephesus who tragically anathematized the Latins even on his deathbed. There is thus an insoluble historical dilemma that makes unavoidable the conclusion that Eastern Orthodoxy is false: (A) For an Eastern Orthodox Christian to say that Catholicism is false would mean that he has to admit that the Gates of Hell have prevailed against the Eastern Orthodox Church, contrary to the promise of our Lord in Mt 16:18, and that therefore Eastern Orthodoxy is false. (B) For an Eastern Orthodox Christian to say that Catholicism is true would mean that he has to admit that Eastern Orthodoxy is false, since Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy have mutually exclusive dogmas.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Roman Catholicism and not Eastern Orthodoxy and vise
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 6:40 pm 
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Really ? How Christian of you, nice way to start a new year ...


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 Post subject: Re: Why Roman Catholicism and not Eastern Orthodoxy and vise
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 6:47 pm 
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beng's citation is in error; perhaps out of necessity, the Orthodox claim that a Council is not binding, no matter who signs its decrees, until it is accepted by "the Church" as a whole. At least, that's what I've been told.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Roman Catholicism and not Eastern Orthodoxy and vise
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 6:51 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
beng's citation is in error; perhaps out of necessity, the Orthodox claim that a Council is not binding, no matter who signs its decrees, until it is accepted by "the Church" as a whole. At least, that's what I've been told.



Truthfully, I've been forced to conclude that there is really nothing that 'Orthodoxy' as a whole believes, it depends on whom you are talking to, in my experience you never get a consistent answer from the Orthodox on anything.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Roman Catholicism and not Eastern Orthodoxy and vise
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 7:33 pm 
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The Orthodox Churches do not contain “all the elements of the true faith” – they explicitly have fallen into the grave errors of permitting divorce and remarriage, denying the reality of the infallibility of the Pope and His primacy, and rejecting the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. This is cavalierly ignored as nonessential!

Tradition shows Pope St Clement exercising his primacy in about 96, on a matter of schism in the Church of Corinth. Of the same generation as Saints Peter and Paul and when St John the Apostle was probably still living in Ephesus, Pope Clement wrote as one commanding to the Church of Corinth in Greece: “If any disobey what He (Christ) says through us, let them know that they will be involved in no small offence and danger, but we shall be innocent of this sin.” (I Clem. ad Cor. 59,1).


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 Post subject: Re: Why Roman Catholicism and not Eastern Orthodoxy and vise
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 7:37 pm 
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Cajun_Catholic_Guy wrote:
I really thought all Orthodox Churches were not in Communion with each other but Fr. Philip (the Orthodox priest) told me they all believe the same thing but have different traditions, traditions with a small t.
I hate to say it, but Fr. Philip is either lying or ignorant. (I hope for it’s the latter, but I doubt it.) There are many serious schisms within the Eastern Orthodox tradition.

Cajun_Catholic_Guy wrote:
Also something that bugs me is I saw a diagram that showed Church history where the bottom line showed one united Church then the great schism and the bottom line is straight and says unbroken unchanged Orthodox Church. Then a line coming up that says Catholic Church and a few lines coming off of that one that showed the how the protestant chruch branch from that and branched off into thousands of denmonations.
I assume that what this chart tries to establish is that the Roman Catholic Church has started many division, while the Eastern Orthodox churches hasn’t. But what then about the Great Schism? Was that OK, somehow? History could also say that there is one church (the Roman Catholic Church) which has had other churches and ecclesial communities break off from her (including the Eastern Orthodox churches). It all goes back to Fr. Philip’s wrongful statement, that the Eastern Orthodox churches “all believe the same thing but have different traditions, traditions with a small t.”

I am not saying that the Roman Catholics are right and the Eastern Orthodox wrong (being a Lutheran). But the chart mentioned, and Fr. Philip’s claims, can easily be read differently, especially since one of his claims is false.

And a little piece of advise. Break up your text into smaller pieces (for instance three parahraphs). That makes it easier to read.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Roman Catholicism and not Eastern Orthodoxy and vise
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 8:14 pm 
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Closet Catholic wrote:
Cajun_Catholic_Guy wrote:
I really thought all Orthodox Churches were not in Communion with each other but Fr. Philip (the Orthodox priest) told me they all believe the same thing but have different traditions, traditions with a small t.
I hate to say it, but Fr. Philip is either lying or ignorant. (I hope for it’s the latter, but I doubt it.) There are many serious schisms within the Eastern Orthodox tradition.

Cajun_Catholic_Guy wrote:
Also something that bugs me is I saw a diagram that showed Church history where the bottom line showed one united Church then the great schism and the bottom line is straight and says unbroken unchanged Orthodox Church. Then a line coming up that says Catholic Church and a few lines coming off of that one that showed the how the protestant chruch branch from that and branched off into thousands of denmonations.
I assume that what this chart tries to establish is that the Roman Catholic Church has started many division, while the Eastern Orthodox churches hasn’t. But what then about the Great Schism? Was that OK, somehow? History could also say that there is one church (the Roman Catholic Church) which has had other churches and ecclesial communities break off from her (including the Eastern Orthodox churches). It all goes back to Fr. Philip’s wrongful statement, that the Eastern Orthodox churches “all believe the same thing but have different traditions, traditions with a small t.”

I am not saying that the Roman Catholics are right and the Eastern Orthodox wrong (being a Lutheran). But the chart mentioned, and Fr. Philip’s claims, can easily be read differently, especially since one of his claims is false.

And a little piece of advise. Break up your text into smaller pieces (for instance three parahraphs). That makes it easier to read.

Will do


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 Post subject: Re: Why Roman Catholicism and not Eastern Orthodoxy and vise
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 8:21 pm 
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The Orthodox recognize only first seven or nine ecumenical councils. The Catholic Church recognizes 21 Ecumenical Councils. The last Ecumenical Council, the Second Vatican Council, took place 50 years ago.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Roman Catholicism and not Eastern Orthodoxy and vise
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 8:53 pm 
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Closet Catholic, I don't think he is lying. He himself is a convert so maybe this is just a misunderstanding that he has kept. Then again I colud be the one who missunderstood him.
In any case if they really are as divided as you guys point out that sets my mind at some ease.
Like I said I love The Catholic Church and don't want to leave her but I just don't want to believe somthing only because it was the way I was raised.
I've been reading all of the links you guys are giving so thank you very much.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Roman Catholicism and not Eastern Orthodoxy and vise
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 9:16 pm 
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Cajun_Catholic_Guy wrote:
...I just don't want to believe something only because it was the way I was raised. ...


Have you considered that all of of converts believed our former churches because it was the way we were raised? And that we took many paths, some easier and some shorter than others, to understand that we believed in the One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. There is simply no other alternative. We all realized that our traditions were fundamentally flawed.

We did it the hard way. I envy those of you who were born into it.


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