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 Post subject: Re: Is God creating from nothing a logical contradiction?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:18 pm 
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GKC wrote:
Vern Humphrey wrote:
Let's see if this works.

What I have is an illustration showing a mathematical point (0 dimensions). Extend the point to form a line (1 dimension). Add other lines to form a square (2 dimensions). Finally, transform the square into a cube (3 dimensions.)

Now the challenge is to transform the cube into a 4-dimensional object. Can anyone do it?

Just imagine a 4-dimensional object and draw it. Except we are incapable of imagining a 4-dimensional object.

And that's where we are discussing creato ex nihilo, the Big Bang and so on -- We are not capable of imagining such things.

(Nope, the illustration didn't go through.)



I made a tesseract in high school.

So did I -- and had to mop the floor afterwards. :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Is God creating from nothing a logical contradiction?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:02 pm 
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Vern Humphrey wrote:
GKC wrote:
Vern Humphrey wrote:
Let's see if this works.

What I have is an illustration showing a mathematical point (0 dimensions). Extend the point to form a line (1 dimension). Add other lines to form a square (2 dimensions). Finally, transform the square into a cube (3 dimensions.)

Now the challenge is to transform the cube into a 4-dimensional object. Can anyone do it?

Just imagine a 4-dimensional object and draw it. Except we are incapable of imagining a 4-dimensional object.

And that's where we are discussing creato ex nihilo, the Big Bang and so on -- We are not capable of imagining such things.

(Nope, the illustration didn't go through.)



I made a tesseract in high school.


So did I -- and had to mop the floor afterwards. :mrgreen:


I was inspired by Heinlein's "-And He Built A Crooked House", and Abbott's FLATLAND. It was tricky manipulating it in the fourth dimension.


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 Post subject: Re: Is God creating from nothing a logical contradiction?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:30 am 
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Didn't you grow an extra pair of hands when you entered the 4th Dimension?


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 Post subject: Re: Is God creating from nothing a logical contradiction?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:28 am 
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Vern Humphrey wrote:
Didn't you grow an extra pair of hands when you entered the 4th Dimension?



Nope. I used waldoes.


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 Post subject: Re: Is God creating from nothing a logical contradiction?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:09 pm 
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GKC wrote:
Vern Humphrey wrote:
Didn't you grow an extra pair of hands when you entered the 4th Dimension?



Nope. I used waldoes.

Were they issued, or did you have to buy them?


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 Post subject: Re: Is God creating from nothing a logical contradiction?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:21 pm 
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Vern Humphrey wrote:
GKC wrote:
Vern Humphrey wrote:
Didn't you grow an extra pair of hands when you entered the 4th Dimension?



Nope. I used waldoes.

Were they issued, or did you have to buy them?


Bought them. From MAGIC, Inc. IIRC.


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 Post subject: Re: Is God creating from nothing a logical contradiction?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:49 pm 
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Wish I had known they carried them.


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 Post subject: Re: Is God creating from nothing a logical contradiction?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:32 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
He doesn't share His being; that would lead to pantheism.

Not only with respect to the initial act of creation but also with respect to the ongoing existence of the universe, things exist because God wills them to.


By sanctifying grace, we do share in His Being.


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 Post subject: Re: Is God creating from nothing a logical contradiction?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:34 pm 
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theJack wrote:
To add to Obi's reply, it is helpful to remember the distinction between something's efficient cause and it's material cause. When we say God created ex nihilo, we mean the world lacked a material cause. It was made out of nothing. That does not mean the world lacked an efficient cause. Indeed, the efficient cause of the world is God.

It would be a self contradiction to say the world made from nothing means that it has no efficient cause. There is no contradiction in saying that God cannot will something into being, i.e., that something need not have a material cause. In fact, there's no reason to say that God could not create ex nihilo today. If God willed something new into existence, that wouldn't mean He made it out of preexisting material (though He could if He so chose). He could simply will something to be even now.


Are you Catholic yet?

If not, I’d boot you out of here. You’ve been in here way too long not to be Catholic.


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 Post subject: Re: Is God creating from nothing a logical contradiction?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:09 pm 
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Strider wrote:
theJack wrote:
To add to Obi's reply, it is helpful to remember the distinction between something's efficient cause and it's material cause. When we say God created ex nihilo, we mean the world lacked a material cause. It was made out of nothing. That does not mean the world lacked an efficient cause. Indeed, the efficient cause of the world is God.

It would be a self contradiction to say the world made from nothing means that it has no efficient cause. There is no contradiction in saying that God cannot will something into being, i.e., that something need not have a material cause. In fact, there's no reason to say that God could not create ex nihilo today. If God willed something new into existence, that wouldn't mean He made it out of preexisting material (though He could if He so chose). He could simply will something to be even now.


Are you Catholic yet?

If not, I’d boot you out of here. You’ve been in here way too long not to be Catholic.



I think he should stay.


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 Post subject: Re: Is God creating from nothing a logical contradiction?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:22 pm 
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Strider wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
He doesn't share His being; that would lead to pantheism.

Not only with respect to the initial act of creation but also with respect to the ongoing existence of the universe, things exist because God wills them to.


By sanctifying grace, we do share in His Being.

Nope. That’s pantheism.


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 Post subject: Re: Is God creating from nothing a logical contradiction?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:16 am 
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I'm not good on deification. I expect that's what Strider's talking about. It would take someone way better versed in this stuff than I am to peel apart those layers.


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 Post subject: Re: Is God creating from nothing a logical contradiction?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:57 pm 
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I suspect that's what he's getting at too, but it's ill-phrased. God exists a se, and that's not a transferable attribute.


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 Post subject: Re: Is God creating from nothing a logical contradiction?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:09 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I suspect that's what he's getting at too, but it's ill-phrased. God exists a se, and that's not a transferable attribute.


Then what our we sharing in, by sanctifying grace, if not His Being?

(Btw, I think St Thomas has four definitions of being. I think we should define our terms?)

Anyway, Does saying that humans “participate” or “shares in” the Divine Nature by created grace mean necessarily the communication of the Divine Nature Itself? As far as I know, we can say that, as long as we emphasize that sanctifying grace is created and that grace is not the Divine Nature Itself.


Last edited by Strider on Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Is God creating from nothing a logical contradiction?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:36 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Strider wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
He doesn't share His being; that would lead to pantheism.

Not only with respect to the initial act of creation but also with respect to the ongoing existence of the universe, things exist because God wills them to.


By sanctifying grace, we do share in His Being.

Nope. That’s pantheism.


I think I see what you are saying...because I used the word “share”?
What would be a better way to say what I’m getting at?


Last edited by Strider on Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Is God creating from nothing a logical contradiction?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:37 pm 
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90. Nor is it necessary, if we say that God is existence alone, for us to fall into the error of those who say that God is universal existence whereby each and every thing formally exists. For the existence which God is, is such that no addition can be made to it. Whence by virtue of its purity it is an existence distinct from every existence. This is why, in the commentary on the ninth proposition of the Book on Causes, it is said that the individuation of the First Cause, which is existence alone, is through its pure goodness. But as regards that universal existence, just as it does not include in its intelligible content any addition, so too neither does it include in its intelligible content any exclusion of addition, because if this were the case, nothing in which something is added over and above its existence could be understood to be.

https://isidore.co/aquinas/DeEnte&Essentia.htm


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 Post subject: Re: Is God creating from nothing a logical contradiction?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:00 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
Quote:
90. Nor is it necessary, if we say that God is existence alone, for us to fall into the error of those who say that God is universal existence whereby each and every thing formally exists. For the existence which God is, is such that no addition can be made to it. Whence by virtue of its purity it is an existence distinct from every existence. This is why, in the commentary on the ninth proposition of the Book on Causes, it is said that the individuation of the First Cause, which is existence alone, is through its pure goodness. But as regards that universal existence, just as it does not include in its intelligible content any addition, so too neither does it include in its intelligible content any exclusion of addition, because if this were the case, nothing in which something is added over and above its existence could be understood to be.

https://isidore.co/aquinas/DeEnte&Essentia.htm


I understand this.

Let me back up some...

I know it is created...but how would we define sanctifying grace?


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 Post subject: Re: Is God creating from nothing a logical contradiction?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:11 pm 
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And thus there is a twofold grace: one whereby man himself is united to God, and this is called "sanctifying grace"; the other is that whereby one man cooperates with another in leading him to God, and this gift is called "gratuitous grace," since it is bestowed on a man beyond the capability of nature, and beyond the merit of the person.

https://www.newadvent.org/summa/2111.htm#article1

Quote:
Nothing can act beyond its species, since the cause must always be more powerful than its effect. Now the gift of grace surpasses every capability of created nature, since it is nothing short of a partaking of the Divine Nature, which exceeds every other nature. And thus it is impossible that any creature should cause grace. For it is as necessary that God alone should deify, bestowing a partaking of the Divine Nature by a participated likeness, as it is impossible that anything save fire should enkindle.

https://www.newadvent.org/summa/2112.htm#article1


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 Post subject: Re: Is God creating from nothing a logical contradiction?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:22 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
Quote:
And thus there is a twofold grace: one whereby man himself is united to God, and this is called "sanctifying grace"; the other is that whereby one man cooperates with another in leading him to God, and this gift is called "gratuitous grace," since it is bestowed on a man beyond the capability of nature, and beyond the merit of the person.

https://www.newadvent.org/summa/2111.htm#article1

Quote:
Nothing can act beyond its species, since the cause must always be more powerful than its effect. Now the gift of grace surpasses every capability of created nature, since it is nothing short of a partaking of the Divine Nature, which exceeds every other nature. And thus it is impossible that any creature should cause grace. For it is as necessary that God alone should deify, bestowing a partaking of the Divine Nature by a participated likeness, as it is impossible that anything save fire should enkindle.

https://www.newadvent.org/summa/2112.htm#article1


Thanks pickle.

His Being and Nature are One and the Same, so why can’t we say....by sanctifying grace we share in His Being (knowing grace is created, by share we mean participate, and by Being, we mean Nature)?

Maybe share is the wrong word. I’m still trying to understand why what I said is pantheism according to Fr.

Anyway, I’ll get back to this later this week. Too tired. I’m going to go watch bugs bunny.


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 Post subject: Re: Is God creating from nothing a logical contradiction?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:20 pm 
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God's essence is to exist. If we share in His essence in that way, then we are no longer distinct from Him.


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