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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:27 pm 
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"In todays vernacular, Mohammad was the ˜Godfather" of a Muslim desert mafia family."


Seriously? Or to put it another way, Seriously?

I sense a dislike of Muslims. That's all.


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:22 pm 
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Amon98 wrote:
"In todays vernacular, Mohammad was the ˜Godfather" of a Muslim desert mafia family."


Seriously? Or to put it another way, Seriously?

I sense a dislike of Muslims. That's all.


You can sense anything you like.
I suggest you get your sense checked though.


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:02 pm 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Etcumspiri22-o, every Pope since at least Vatican II has taught that "Muslims...worship the one God".

If you don't believe that Muslims worship the one God, who do you think Allah is? Do you think Allah exists somewhere?




The claim may be politically correct but historically and Biblically it is incorrect.

There are bountiful examples making the case that YHWH and Allah are not the same God; but in the interest of brevity, here are two salient quotations from the Gospel of Matthew and from Sura 2 of the Quran
(* Full quotes and explanation linked below)

Matt 5:43-45 ... Love your enemies.

vs

Quran Sura 2: 190-94 ... Retribution is a mandate.

One need not be a religious theologian to comprehend that a God cannot possibly be the same deity when that divine source issues completely contradictory instructions to followers on how to behave in exactly the same circumstances.

____________________________

Thomas Aquinas made the following trenchant observation regarding Mohammads brigand theology.

"Muhammad enticed peoples with the promise of carnal pleasures, to the desire of which the concupiscence of the flesh instigates. He also delivered commandments in keeping with his promises, by giving the reins to carnal pleasure, wherein it is easy for carnal men to obey: and the lessons of truth which he inculcated were only such as can be easily known to any man of average wisdom by his natural powers: yea rather the truths which he taught were mingled by him with many fables and most false doctrines. Nor did he add any signs of supernatural agency but he asserted that he was sent in the power of arms, a sign that is not lacking even to robbers and tyrants. Again, those who believed in him from the outset were not wise men practiced in things divine and human, but beast like men who dwelt in the wilds, utterly ignorant of all divine teaching; and it was by a multitude of such men and the force of arms that he compelled others to submit to his law."

In todays vernacular, Mohammad was the ˜Godfather" of a Muslim desert mafia family.
____________________________

The Muslims say that they worship the one God based on the claim that the original Muslims descended from Abraham. They also claim that Abraham was the founder of Islam.

Here is a synopsis if historic facts contradicting Islam's claims:

Abrahams life is archeologically dated to have occurred circa 2000 B.C. in Mesopotamia and the Fertile crescent, while Mohammads Islamic cult first began to take fruition in Mohammads imagination in 610 A.D. in Western Arabia.

There is, in fact, no genealogical, historical, or archeological evidence linking Abraham and Mohammad.

Mohammad claimed Abrahamic lineage for Islam through Abrahams son, Ishmael. Ishmael was the Arab spawn of Abraham and his Egyptian concubine, Hagar. Hagar was eventually exiled along with Ishmael from Abrahams tribe to the desert of Sinai, not to the desert of Arabia.

The fact which makes Mohammads ˜Abrahamic common-ancestor-origin myth extremely dubious is that the Ishmaelite-descendant tribes lived not in the Arabia deserts of Mohammads Quraish Tribe, but far to the north and west of Arabia by Bronze Age standards in the Sinai and Fertile Crescent deserts. Another historical fact discrediting Mohammads fictitious Abrahamic myth is that these Ishmaelite nomadic tribes disappeared from history after 700 B.C, while Mohammads Quraish Tribe didnt occupy Mecca until after 500 B.C.

In order to make sense of Mohammads historically fanciful Abrahamic lineage claim, it is necessary to be aware of the ˜Islamic mythological theology that the Quran, ˜the Mother of the Book, has existed forever with Allah; therefore, according to Islamic theology, the Quran predated Adam, Abraham, Mohammad, and all of mankind. Consequently, according to this Muslim timeline, Abraham was actually a prophet of Islam. And since Abraham is claimed by Muslims to be the patriarch of all three religions, consider how Islamic theology depicts Abraham counseling Muslims to embark on eternal hatred of any persons that do not believe in the Islamic Allah God alone, which naturally refers to Christians, Jews, and believers in other faiths. This Quranic portrayal of Abraham is totally contrary to the Judeo-Christian concept of that patriarch, thus invalidating the Islamic claim of shared Abrahamic lineage.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-rel ... 2219/posts


Hi EtcumSpiri22-0,

I'd like to add a point. Back in my protestant years I went/graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary...had a missions professor Dr. Blue (great guy!) who taught us that Muslims claim God's promise to Abraham through Isaac was a result of Christians "swapping out" Ishmael for Isaac - that the promise was actually to be through Ishmael and Christians changed scripture. I hadn't known that, but later I remember debating a Muslim who affirmed this...that Christians distorted that truth. When I responded that copies of Genesis were found in the Dead Sea Scrolls with the promise involving Isaac, not Ishmael, and the scrolls were centuries before Christ...i.e. Christians didn't exist yet...the debate ended (no response). Surely they can have no answer.

-BHM


Last edited by By His Mercy on Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:07 pm 
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:thumbsup:


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:58 pm 
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Muslims believe many false things about God, and they fail to believe many true things about God, but their beliefs about God are still beliefs about God.


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:49 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
Muslims believe many false things about God, and they fail to believe many true things about God, but their beliefs about God are still beliefs about God.



Yeah well ... maybe.
That just sounds like a verbal shell game to me.

They can pretty much, pin any label they choose.

Here is Jesus opinion concerning labels...
Jesus was conversing with some Israelites one day and they claimed impeccable credentials and implied that Jesus was considered a person with questionable birth credentials. They asserted that they were descendants of Abraham. Biologically, they were correct. Jesus indicated that their defense was worthless. He told them the truth. He said that their heart condition and actions proved that they were of their father Satan.

I look at the Mormons as being very similar. A charismatic personality shows up, writes a story dictated by an "angel" and says, hey, you Christians got it wrong. Fear not, I am here to make it right. Then, inspires a following, builds an army, claims that anything he says or does is good because he is sent from "God".

Yeah well ... maybe.

Two thousand yrs ago...This is what Paul the Apostle said in order to head it off at the pass:

Gal 1
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be under a divine curse! 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be under a curse!…


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 10:24 am 
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OK. None of that is really relevant to what I said, but OK.


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 11:40 am 
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:arrow:


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:58 pm 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:

Two thousand yrs ago...This is what Paul the Apostle said in order to head it off at the pass:

Gal 1
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be under a divine curse! 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be under a curse!…

Etcumspiri22-0 Does the Catholic Church preach a gospel contrary to the one Paul referred to?


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:47 pm 
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This ought to be in this thread:

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
They were, in fact, pagan idols. Fr. Mitch Pacwa, who was a missionary in Peru and would know, says that the hierarchy was the God of the mountains, then the earth goddess (whose statues were used), then Jesus and Mary, in that order.


https://www.thetablet.co.uk/news/12224/ ... issionary-

'The wooden sculptures that were stolen from a church in Rome and thrown into the Tiber are not considered idols by the Amazonians, says a Spanish missionary who has been living with indigenous tribes in the rainforest for over a decade.

Genni Lloris is a consecrated member of the movement Verbum Dei and part of a team of missionaries that works with native tribes in the depths of the Amazon, in Brazil. It was this team that travelled to Rome to set up the display of Amazonian artefacts in the church of Santa Maria in Transpotina during the synod on the Amazon, in October...

...Genni Lloris rejects the idea that the Amazonians see the image as divine in any way. “That image represents Mother Earth, nothing more. Somebody interpreted it as representing a divinity, but it is only an icon of Mother Earth. These groups then started speaking of religious syncretism, but there was nothing of the sort, it was invented by them.” '


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:58 pm 
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What is "Mother Earth"?

It must be some kind of entity if indigenous peoples are carving images of "it" .....


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:51 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
This ought to be in this thread:

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
They were, in fact, pagan idols. Fr. Mitch Pacwa, who was a missionary in Peru and would know, says that the hierarchy was the God of the mountains, then the earth goddess (whose statues were used), then Jesus and Mary, in that order.


https://www.thetablet.co.uk/news/12224/ ... issionary-

'The wooden sculptures that were stolen from a church in Rome and thrown into the Tiber are not considered idols by the Amazonians, says a Spanish missionary who has been living with indigenous tribes in the rainforest for over a decade.

Genni Lloris is a consecrated member of the movement Verbum Dei and part of a team of missionaries that works with native tribes in the depths of the Amazon, in Brazil. It was this team that travelled to Rome to set up the display of Amazonian artefacts in the church of Santa Maria in Transpotina during the synod on the Amazon, in October...

...Genni Lloris rejects the idea that the Amazonians see the image as divine in any way. “That image represents Mother Earth, nothing more. Somebody interpreted it as representing a divinity, but it is only an icon of Mother Earth. These groups then started speaking of religious syncretism, but there was nothing of the sort, it was invented by them.” '


You heroine also said:

Quote:
Over all, says Genni Lloris, the Amazon Synod went well, but she insists that it is not over yet. “The synod was not only about discussing the Amazon, it was also about putting the Church on a new path, to move from a pyramidal Church to a circular church, with the periphery moving to the centre”.


My hisoine might disagree.


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:25 pm 
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I’ve quoted someone so you think she’s my heroine. You’ve quoted me.


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:08 pm 
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tAnGo wrote:
What is "Mother Earth"?

It must be some kind of entity if indigenous peoples are carving images of "it" .....

Atheists who don’t believe in any kind of God or gods or pagan “entities”, or anything like that, use the term “Mother Earth”. It doesn’t mean they believe in the actual existence of Mother Earth, it’s figurative, symbolic. Pope John Paul II has spoken of Mother Earth.

Just because some people somewhere in the world carve images of “it”, doesn’t mean that “it” should never be displayed in the grounds of a Church.

If some people somewhere in the world carve images of cows, it doesn’t mean a carved image of a cow should never be displayed in the grounds of a Church, does it?

And if some people somewhere in the world worship cows, it doesn’t mean a carved image of a cow should never be displayed in the grounds of a Church, does it?


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:01 pm 
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This is moving into 'Oh fer cryin' out loud' territory. For the record, there was no "papal participation in pagan worship."


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:39 am 
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Why do I keep having flashbacks of Baghdad Bob?


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:06 am 
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Too much LSD?


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:26 am 
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No, thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:20 am 
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Quote:
"To get back to the warning that I received. You may take it with however many grains of salt that you wish. That the brown acid that is circulating around us isn't too good. It is suggested that you stay away from that. Of course it's your own trip. So be my guest, but please be advised that there is a warning on that one, ok?"


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:22 am 
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Obtainable by going down to Yasgur's Farm.


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