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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:55 pm 
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Highlander wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Highlander wrote:
Contrarian, eh?

Do you not agree?

Not at all. Peace and goodwill should be rationed ... to this season and to deserving people.


Matthew 5

43 “You have heard the law that says, ‘Love your neighbor’ and hate your enemy. 44 But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! 45 In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike. 46 If you love only those who love you, what reward is there for that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. 47 If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that. 48 But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect.


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:12 pm 
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Denise Dee,

Of course we should be praying for our enemies, and love them with the help of the Lord's grace, even if we need to become martyrs because of them.

The scripture that is being discussed refers to those who reject the Lord's authority, and thus do not have good will.


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:46 am 
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Dorothy B. wrote:
Denise Dee,

Of course we should be praying for our enemies, and love them with the help of the Lord's grace, even if we need to become martyrs because of them.

The scripture that is being discussed refers to those who reject the Lord's authority, and thus do not have good will.

I'm getting a bit lost, Dorothy: what scripture are you referring to, what scripture "refers to those who reject the Lord's authority, and thus do not have good will"?


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:31 pm 
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Amon98 wrote:
According to this translation, Luke 2:14

American King James Version
Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.


Δόξα ἐν ὑψίστοις Θεῷ καὶ ἐπὶ γῆς εἰρήνη ἐν ἀνθρώποις εὐδοκίας
Glory in the highest to God and on earth peace among men [with whom he is pleased?]

Gloria in altissimis Deo et in terra pax hominibus bonae voluntatis
Glory in the highest to God and on earth peace to men of good will.

"peace, good will to men" isn't quite the same as "peace to men of good will" ...

and yeah, why are you looking at the KJV? I thought you were Catholic? The Douay-Rheims gets it right.

....but this is way, way off this thread's topic....


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:52 pm 
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Amon98 wrote:
According to this translation, Luke 2:14

American King James Version
Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

The word "all" isn't in there.


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:00 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Dorothy B. wrote:
Denise Dee,

Of course we should be praying for our enemies, and love them with the help of the Lord's grace, even if we need to become martyrs because of them.

The scripture that is being discussed refers to those who reject the Lord's authority, and thus do not have good will.

I'm getting a bit lost, Dorothy: what scripture are you referring to, what scripture "refers to those who reject the Lord's authority, and thus do not have good will"?


On page 5 of this thread you wrote: "Peace and goodwill to all" isn't just for Christmas." You wrote that on Dec. 2, at 5:29 PM. You got several responses asking you about what you wrote.

At the first Christmas there is a scripture reading in Luke 2:4 that says "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to men of good will."

In other bible versions that are non-Catholic it says....Luke 2:4 "Peace on earth good will to men".

Those two scripture readings are very different from one another. In the first one there is peace to men of good will. In other words they already have good will and the peace of the birth of Our Lord is with them.

The second version of that same scripture says, "Peace on earth good will to men."

I am pointing out that "good will" cannot be given to those who are not disposed to it.


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:33 pm 
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Dorothy B. wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Dorothy B. wrote:
Denise Dee,

Of course we should be praying for our enemies, and love them with the help of the Lord's grace, even if we need to become martyrs because of them.

The scripture that is being discussed refers to those who reject the Lord's authority, and thus do not have good will.

I'm getting a bit lost, Dorothy: what scripture are you referring to, what scripture "refers to those who reject the Lord's authority, and thus do not have good will"?


On page 5 of this thread you wrote: "Peace and goodwill to all" isn't just for Christmas." You wrote that on Dec. 2, at 5:29 PM. You got several responses asking you about what you wrote.

At the first Christmas there is a scripture reading in Luke 2:4 that says "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to men of good will."

In other bible versions that are non-Catholic it says....Luke 2:4 "Peace on earth good will to men".

Those two scripture readings are very different from one another. In the first one there is peace to men of good will. In other words they already have good will and the peace of the birth of Our Lord is with them.

The second version of that same scripture says, "Peace on earth good will to men."

I am pointing out that "good will" cannot be given to those who are not disposed to it.

Okay. Thanks for taking the trouble to explain that, Dorothy. I have always assumed that Peace and goodwill to all men (and women), which people often say at Christmas, meant wishing peace and willing good to all men (and women), which I think is the way we should treat each other at Christmas, but not just at Christmas, all the time. It may not be easy, but it's something we should cultivate in our hearts the whole year through, not just at Christmas, so that it becomes second nature, rather than something that we have to force at Christmas.


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:41 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Dorothy B. wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Dorothy B. wrote:
Denise Dee,

Of course we should be praying for our enemies, and love them with the help of the Lord's grace, even if we need to become martyrs because of them.

The scripture that is being discussed refers to those who reject the Lord's authority, and thus do not have good will.

I'm getting a bit lost, Dorothy: what scripture are you referring to, what scripture "refers to those who reject the Lord's authority, and thus do not have good will"?


On page 5 of this thread you wrote: "Peace and goodwill to all" isn't just for Christmas." You wrote that on Dec. 2, at 5:29 PM. You got several responses asking you about what you wrote.

At the first Christmas there is a scripture reading in Luke 2:4 that says "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to men of good will."

In other bible versions that are non-Catholic it says....Luke 2:4 "Peace on earth good will to men".

Those two scripture readings are very different from one another. In the first one there is peace to men of good will. In other words they already have good will and the peace of the birth of Our Lord is with them.

The second version of that same scripture says, "Peace on earth good will to men."

I am pointing out that "good will" cannot be given to those who are not disposed to it.

Okay. Thanks for taking the trouble to explain that, Dorothy. I have always assumed that Peace and goodwill to all men (and women), which people often say at Christmas, meant wishing peace and willing good to all men (and women), which I think is the way we should treat each other at Christmas, but not just at Christmas, all the time. It may not be easy, but it's something we should cultivate in our hearts the whole year through, not just at Christmas, so that it becomes second nature, rather than something that we have to force at Christmas.


I certainly agree that unconditional love should be shown throughout the year, every year of our lives!

Blessings,

Dorothy


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:05 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
...that Peace and goodwill to all men (and women), which people often say at Christmas, meant wishing peace and willing good to all men (and women) ...

You did not specifically mention children. What do you have against children? Do you think that God does not wish well for children. And, I'll not even mention the pan-bi-tri-trans humans (and other of the many sentient species that populate Mother Earth and are entitled to good will as well) that you have ignored.


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:46 pm 
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Highlander wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
...that Peace and goodwill to all men (and women), which people often say at Christmas, meant wishing peace and willing good to all men (and women) ...

You did not specifically mention children. What do you have against children? Do you think that God does not wish well for children. And, I'll not even mention the pan-bi-tri-trans humans (and other of the many sentient species that populate Mother Earth and are entitled to good will as well) that you have ignored.


:clap:


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:49 am 
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Highlander wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
...that Peace and goodwill to all men (and women), which people often say at Christmas, meant wishing peace and willing good to all men (and women) ...

You did not specifically mention children. What do you have against children? Do you think that God does not wish well for children. And, I'll not even mention the pan-bi-tri-trans humans (and other of the many sentient species that populate Mother Earth and are entitled to good will as well) that you have ignored.

I haven't ignored them, I deliberately excluded them because wishing peace and willing good has to be rationed, there's not enough to go round, it should be limited only to deserving people. All those others you mentioned are not deserving, especially children, they're very annoying and they expect other people to pay for everything.


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:38 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Highlander wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
...that Peace and goodwill to all men (and women), which people often say at Christmas, meant wishing peace and willing good to all men (and women) ...

You did not specifically mention children. What do you have against children? Do you think that God does not wish well for children. And, I'll not even mention the pan-bi-tri-trans humans (and other of the many sentient species that populate Mother Earth and are entitled to good will as well) that you have ignored.

I haven't ignored them, I deliberately excluded them because wishing peace and willing good has to be rationed, there's not enough to go round, it should be limited only to deserving people. All those others you mentioned are not deserving, especially children, they're very annoying and they expect other people to pay for everything.


kinda still not picking up on that nuance of "goodwill to men" vs. "to men of goodwill" yet, eh?


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:48 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Highlander wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
...that Peace and goodwill to all men (and women), which people often say at Christmas, meant wishing peace and willing good to all men (and women) ...

You did not specifically mention children. What do you have against children? Do you think that God does not wish well for children. And, I'll not even mention the pan-bi-tri-trans humans (and other of the many sentient species that populate Mother Earth and are entitled to good will as well) that you have ignored.

I haven't ignored them, I deliberately excluded them because wishing peace and willing good has to be rationed, there's not enough to go round, it should be limited only to deserving people. All those others you mentioned are not deserving, especially children, they're very annoying and they expect other people to pay for everything.

That's a solid "A" for you. in the US grading system.

Touché.


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 4:24 pm 
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Xavier wrote:
Last month I was stunned by the pagan worship at the Vatican.




I have been wondering what the Pope is thinking along those lines, long before this recent episode.

I think someone here, in a previous post, wondered what the ensuing conversation might have been like between Peter and Paul in the same situation.

Jesus said "My sheep hear my voice." I respectfully, honestly wonder; What voice is Pope Francis listening to?

Jesus clearly voiced; "I am the way, the truth, the life. NO ONE comes to the Father except through me."

vs...

Several years ago Pope Francis heartily encouraged this "voice" at the Vatican.
I realize that his intent was to encourage peace but I cant wrap my head around the fact that Pope Francis so easily shifts back and forth between polar opposites... Conflating peace with impressions that seem to encourage people to accept the idea that all religions are, at their core, seeking the one true God... Its just a matter of cultural style. Is Pope Francis purposefully lending the authenticity of his stature to other "voices"? Is this most recent Idol worship ceremony a continuation of a pattern to use current events, circumstances and emotion to passively/ aggressively encourage acceptance of all religions as being good and wholesome? I pray not, but these events and words are certainly disconcerting to me.


Early on in his Papacy, Pope Francis said this:
"I then greet and cordially thank you all, dear friends belonging to other religious traditions; first of all the Muslims, who worship the one God (*emphasis, mine), living and merciful, and call upon Him in prayer, and all of you."

Full context here Pope’s Address to Representatives of the Churches, Ecclesial Communities and Other Religions.


The idea that the God of Christianity= the Muslim's Allah is the central belief in a sect called Chrislam.

The video linked above and below is an Imam singing a chanting the Koran at the vatican. The location looks like the same garden where the idol was worshipped. To be sure, I have no animosity toward Muslims. My concern is that conflating God with Allah is wrong headed. The Koran describes a completely different God than does the Bible. Like night and day.


Video: Imam recites Quran for the first time in the Vatican
Monday, 9 June 2014

https://youtu.be/Hh8FYJl3dXQ


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:13 pm 
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What was the point of that? More stirring of the pot?

Judaism, Islam and Christianity are referred to as the Abrahamic religions. And Pope Francis did talk about why there are various religions.

https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2 ... ions-world


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:08 pm 
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Etcumspiri22-o, every Pope since at least Vatican II has taught that "Muslims...worship the one God".

If you don't believe that Muslims worship the one God, who do you think Allah is? Do you think Allah exists somewhere?


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:48 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Etcumspiri22-o, every Pope since at least Vatican II has taught that "Muslims...worship the one God".

If you don't believe that Muslims worship the one God, who do you think Allah is? Do you think Allah exists somewhere?


Compare the teachings of Allah's prophet to the teachings of Christ. Are they the same?


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:52 pm 
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Lumen Gentium, 16:

Quote:
16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God. In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh. On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues. But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.


I don't think that's meant as an infallible declaration, but it does mean Denise is not making this up.


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:25 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Lumen Gentium, 16:

Quote:
16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God. In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh. On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues. But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.


I don't think that's meant as an infallible declaration, but it does mean Denise is not making this up.


I know that Muslims were brought up hearing many of the same stories as we were, ours being from the Bible, theirs from their own sources. I have Iranian (non-radical) Muslim family members, and their beliefs are much like ours. They believe in the One God, they believe that Jesus was a prophet, but they also believe in His "miraculous" birth. Mohammed's teachings are not Christ's teachings, they put him above Christ. One thing I will say for these family members is that they honor Mary, unlike the Protestants that I know.


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:07 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Etcumspiri22-o, every Pope since at least Vatican II has taught that "Muslims...worship the one God".

If you don't believe that Muslims worship the one God, who do you think Allah is? Do you think Allah exists somewhere?




The claim may be politically correct but historically and Biblically it is incorrect.

There are bountiful examples making the case that YHWH and Allah are not the same God; but in the interest of brevity, here are two salient quotations from the Gospel of Matthew and from Sura 2 of the Quran
(* Full quotes and explanation linked below)

Matt 5:43-45 ... Love your enemies.

vs

Quran Sura 2: 190-94 ... Retribution is a mandate.

One need not be a religious theologian to comprehend that a God cannot possibly be the same deity when that divine source issues completely contradictory instructions to followers on how to behave in exactly the same circumstances.

____________________________

Thomas Aquinas made the following trenchant observation regarding Mohammads brigand theology.

"Muhammad enticed peoples with the promise of carnal pleasures, to the desire of which the concupiscence of the flesh instigates. He also delivered commandments in keeping with his promises, by giving the reins to carnal pleasure, wherein it is easy for carnal men to obey: and the lessons of truth which he inculcated were only such as can be easily known to any man of average wisdom by his natural powers: yea rather the truths which he taught were mingled by him with many fables and most false doctrines. Nor did he add any signs of supernatural agency but he asserted that he was sent in the power of arms, a sign that is not lacking even to robbers and tyrants. Again, those who believed in him from the outset were not wise men practiced in things divine and human, but beast like men who dwelt in the wilds, utterly ignorant of all divine teaching; and it was by a multitude of such men and the force of arms that he compelled others to submit to his law."

In todays vernacular, Mohammad was the ˜Godfather" of a Muslim desert mafia family.
____________________________

The Muslims say that they worship the one God based on the claim that the original Muslims descended from Abraham. They also claim that Abraham was the founder of Islam.

Here is a synopsis if historic facts contradicting Islam's claims:

Abrahams life is archeologically dated to have occurred circa 2000 B.C. in Mesopotamia and the Fertile crescent, while Mohammads Islamic cult first began to take fruition in Mohammads imagination in 610 A.D. in Western Arabia.

There is, in fact, no genealogical, historical, or archeological evidence linking Abraham and Mohammad.

Mohammad claimed Abrahamic lineage for Islam through Abrahams son, Ishmael. Ishmael was the Arab spawn of Abraham and his Egyptian concubine, Hagar. Hagar was eventually exiled along with Ishmael from Abrahams tribe to the desert of Sinai, not to the desert of Arabia.

The fact which makes Mohammads ˜Abrahamic common-ancestor-origin myth extremely dubious is that the Ishmaelite-descendant tribes lived not in the Arabia deserts of Mohammads Quraish Tribe, but far to the north and west of Arabia by Bronze Age standards in the Sinai and Fertile Crescent deserts. Another historical fact discrediting Mohammads fictitious Abrahamic myth is that these Ishmaelite nomadic tribes disappeared from history after 700 B.C, while Mohammads Quraish Tribe didnt occupy Mecca until after 500 B.C.

In order to make sense of Mohammads historically fanciful Abrahamic lineage claim, it is necessary to be aware of the ˜Islamic mythological theology that the Quran, ˜the Mother of the Book, has existed forever with Allah; therefore, according to Islamic theology, the Quran predated Adam, Abraham, Mohammad, and all of mankind. Consequently, according to this Muslim timeline, Abraham was actually a prophet of Islam. And since Abraham is claimed by Muslims to be the patriarch of all three religions, consider how Islamic theology depicts Abraham counseling Muslims to embark on eternal hatred of any persons that do not believe in the Islamic Allah God alone, which naturally refers to Christians, Jews, and believers in other faiths. This Quranic portrayal of Abraham is totally contrary to the Judeo-Christian concept of that patriarch, thus invalidating the Islamic claim of shared Abrahamic lineage.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-rel ... 2219/posts


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