I have had moments of uncertainty vis a vis God's love--- not so much other, related-to-that stuff

I mean, you see all the evil, you experience evil and you can't help thinking Where the heck is this loving God I have heard of?

and yet, it has been the Church (in my life) that has shown me God's love more than anything else. It is a long story why I say this (stories, plural) but when the devil has attacked me the hardest, it is always Catholic stuff that makes him go away (rosary, etc)

I may doubt God's love at times but I don't doubt the Church (Jesus... same thing)

The Christians that I referred to above have studied in depth, the word of God (the Bible), and have come to the conclusion that the RCC has strayed from the original teachings and intentions of Jesus in crucial ways. They have concluded that the RCC has assumed license to do things that were never authorized by Jesus or by God the Father and that it has suppressed things that were authorized, similar to the church of Ephesus. Thus, they conclude that the RCC bears little, to no resemblance to God's original.

they can conclude whatever they want. Why do you listen to THEM rather than the Church? Why is their assessment of the Church more important than the Church's assessment of itself--or just the Church Period? You trust their authority over the Church that Christ founded. But why do you do that?

because you choose to. But I have news for you: The Catholic Church existed some 1900-some-odd years before your friends did. I believe the Church says that Christ's Church (the RCC) began at the Ascension, (or Pentecost) so that is 2000-plus years of Catholicism. The first break in the Church was in1521 with Luther. So Protestants follow Luther and those who broke away from Luther.. NOT Jesus

Its not about me. Please dont do that. If you want to discuss facts and issues thats fine. If you make me the focus of your opinion, I will respectfully decline. Using a phrase like "I have news for you" indicates that this might be the first volley in a brow beating rant. I ignore rants. They produce nothing positive.

i didn't mean to offend. I apologize. I guess i have had more than my share (?)of anti-Catholics in my life and.. well, I am not including you here but most of them do not listen at all and think they know everything about the Catholic Church, more than I do, even though never been catholic.. so yeh, i admit, I copped an attitude.. which of course does not negate what I said but in any case--

The assessment that the church ought to be listened to, that the RCC is the church founded by Christ, that the Church teaches anything authoritative, and so on, is itself an assessment of a "them." It's often said that "Protestants" are all their own popes. As I have long said, it turns out, so are Catholics, too. non-Catholics just tend to read Scriptures, assume their perspicuity, and believe that; whereas Catholics tend to read Church teachings, assume their perspicuity, and believe that. I happen to think the Scriptures are fare more perspicuous than RCC doctrine, and more consistent, too. But that's just MY assessment. You, of course, will have YOUR assessment, which will differ from mine.

If only there were a way to look at my arguments and the arguments of your church and decide which one is more likely to be right. If only God had given human beings a faculty whereby they could consider different propositions and the evidence in support of them and come to conclusions rather than rely on blind faith. Ah, if only . . .

No offense taken. Apology heartily accepted.

I am not stating the following to talk about me. I am responding to your statement that you hear a lot of anti Catholic stuff from those that know nothing of which they speak.

I love Catholics. For perspective: As a way of creating background, I was born into a very staunch RCC family and huge extended family. I attended the Catholic Church for the first 25 yrs of my life. I went to a Catholic school through the 8th grade. Went to morning Mass every school day during those yrs (got the 'I survived Catholic School' t-shirt), an altar boy (knew the Mass in Latin), attended CCD classes through my high school years. Wore a scapular, Stations of the Cross, May festival in honor of Mary. Inducted into the Boy Scout order of AD Altare Dei. Did all the things Catholic kids do in a small town just west of Pittsburgh PA.

I was a Charismatic Catholic at the height of that move of God. That move dovetailed with the 'Jesus Movement' that started across the world in the late 60's and spanned the next 2 decades. What I found, through that experience, and could not deny... is that... In God's eyes, a Christian is a Christian. Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Eastern Catholic, Protestant, Coptic, Messianic Jew, Non Denominational, Jesus freak
... Doesnt matter/ all are equal.

In response †o your statement about the original church split... The Orthodox crufuffle preceded Luther by quite a few yrs.

As to your reference to Martin Luther:
No less than a German pope stood in the same place Luther had lived and studied, deeply honoring Martin Luther’s desire to know how we receive the grace of God and challenging us, that we must do the same.


“How do I receive the grace of God?” The fact that this question was the driving force of his whole life never ceases to make an impression on me."
...Pope Benedict XVI

"What constantly exercised him (Luther) was the question of God, the deep passion and driving force of his whole life’s journey. “How do I receive the grace of God?”: this question struck him in the heart and lay at the foundation of all his theological searching and inner struggle. For him theology was no mere academic pursuit, but the struggle for oneself, which in turn was a struggle for and with God.The question: what is God’s position towards me, where do I stand before God? – this burning question of Martin Luther must once more, doubtless in a new form, become our question too."
...Pope Benedict XVI

https://internetmonk.com/archive/the-bu ... tin-luther

i have read books on Luther, books that quote his own words and his own words are... um.. demonic at times. He often spoke of vile things.. vulgar things, used vulgar terminology. Is tht the way a man of God talks?

when I am frightened somehow or startled, I can use "unattractive words" but I do not use those words when others are around and always repent of them w hen i have the a4mntnd moments of discomfort/pain

anyway, the Catholic Church is the one Christ founded. I d o not believe this, i KNOW it. I have studied but more importantly, i have LIVED in this world for some time, and have been in both Catholic and noncatholic "churches." Wehn I am in the noncatholic ones, i have what can only be called a tangible ACHING in my spirit for the Real Presence.. I mean, there is the Real Presence of Christ (Catholic Churches) and then there is the unReal Absence..

There is no comparison of course

I have had more than my share of BAD catholics in my life, priests included and yet I still love the Real Presence because I love Jesus (same thing). I feel sad for people who do not have the Real Presence and so I share this knowledge with them. I shared it with a young person recently and his good attitude turned sour... I think he just didn't get it, about the bread becoming Bread. Fortunately, i was able to show him Jn 6:20

Yours is the common response...
Clarification: A Pope is quoted. You seem to have chosen to completely ignore his analysis in favor of your own.

Pope Benedict's words focused on the very reason that Pope Leo (et al.) drew the line. He erased it.

i dont even know what you are talking about

and if any pope says Luther was anything but a vile, rebellious, lawless heretic

i am NOT going to listen.

"catholics" who blindly follow the pope give Catholics a bad reputation. The noncatholics are all too quick to say You people blindly follow the pope.

The Holy Spirit is what (who) tells us the truth and the HS comes from Jesus and His Church (Real Presence). As St Paul said "If anyone comes to you preaching a fake Jesus [my term].." you know the rest

I get that. Not an uncommon position.

"Sigismondo Tizio, whose devotion to the Holy See is undoubted, writes truthfully: "In the general opinion it was injurious to the Church that her Head should delight in plays, music, the chase and nonsense, instead of paying serious attention to the needs of his flock and mourning over their misfortunes". Von Reumont says pertinently—"Leo X is in great measure to blame for the fact that faith in the integrity and merit of the papacy, in its moral and regenerating powers, and even in its good intentions, should have sunk so low that men could declare extinct the old true spirit of the Church."

You seem to contradict yourself, in that;
You choose to agree with the solution arrived upon by the one described above ,Leo X, (Who seems not to be considered a theologian or a shepherd, by his peers) and you choose to disagree with Benedict XVI, (a respected expositor of theology) and the one who committed himself to sorting out the mess his predecessor, Leo X, exacerbated.

https://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/pope-leo-x

If Pope Leo X went by the Bible, Martin Luther would still be Catholic.

OH SNAP!!!

Doom to punch in 3,2,1...

protestants tend to think like this

they are not used to certainty. Catholics have that because our Church goes back to the time of the 12 Apostles.. actually back to Jesus, of course.

If you can't trust THAT, well.. you will always have uncertainty. But historians who weren't Christian believed Jesus existed so--- if you beleive in Jesus, you have to believe in the FIRST CHurch which was the Roman Catholic Church

I believe that theJack's last paragraph was meant as sarcasm.

i have lost track of what it was I agreed or disagreed with.. so since I am lost, I will try to "find" myself somewhere else.

Hawaii



never been there.. but it looks lovely

did u know people live longer there than any other state? the climate, no doubt

You do know I'm not Catholic, right?

Ephesians 3:10 New International Version (NIV)
10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms...

"through the church".......not the bible

which church? surely not one that begun in the last century or the last 5 centuries for that matter. OR one that is about to spawn ...

I'm Catholic because I believe the testimony of the Apostles & I believe the Bible to be the inspired word of God on the authority of His Catholic church.

Jesus established the Catholic church which then gave us the Bible. It is that simple.