Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 1   [ 7 posts ]   
Author Message
 Post subject: Faustina ~ for further discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:25 am 
Offline
Neener Queen
Neener Queen
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:33 pm
Posts: 9728
Location: Too Tired to Remember
Religion: Catholic
Faustina, I broke this out of the Megachurch Parody thread so as to not muddy the waters. (I slay myself with my puns!)

Faustina wrote:
Yet would it be perfect justice for God to refuse entry into the Kingdom of an innocent person?

Faustina, make no mistake, God does not owe salvation to anyone. 'Could', 'can', 'hope' do not signify 'must'.
Quote:
Meaning, a person who never heard the Gospel? One who didn't have faith because they never heard the Gospel?

Ignorant does not mean 'innocent'. We are all under Original Sin. Not only that, but Faith does not come from hearing the Gospel. Faith comes from God to begin with. If Faith comes from hearing the Gospel, then everyone hearing the Gospel would have Faith, and we know that is not true. Remember, Faith is a supernatural gift from God. Only God can reveal God. As Scripture tells us “without Faith it is impossible to please God.”
Quote:
So what does God do in that case? God cannot condemn an innocent person as that would not be God and perfect justice.

While the Church holds out the hope of salvation, and recognizes that God can save them, do not confuse this with God having an obligation to save them. We are His Creatures to do with as He Wills.
Quote:
But I do believe that it is God that gives the gift of faith.

And this is very contradictive of what you have just said. God does give the gift of Faith, yet you have supposed that He would withhold this gift and then save the person whom He has withheld it from. That just plain does not make sense.

It is absurd to assume that someone who has not heard the Gospel and has no Faith in even the existence of God must be saved by God, whereas we who have been given the gift of Faith can only have hope for eternal life.

_________________
Formerly known as ElizabethF

You cannot have Jesus as your brother and then reject Mary as your mother. You cannot love His Father as your Father, and then refuse to love His mother.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Faustina ~ for further discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:46 am 
Offline
Honeymoon King
Honeymoon King
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 25, 2003 4:39 pm
Posts: 44270
Location: in marital bliss
Religion: One Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic
Church Affiliations: 3rd Degree K of C, L of M
What has God told us He will actually do?

What can we imagine He will possibly do?

These two are not the same.

We must be careful to distinguish between them.

God can do anything.

That does not mean He does everything.

_________________
We are obliged to believe and confess with simplicity that outside the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins. [Pope Boniface VIII]

Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


Holy Mary, Queen of the Martyrs, Pray for us.



Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Faustina ~ for further discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:52 am 
Offline
Handmaids of the Lord
Handmaids of the Lord
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 7:59 pm
Posts: 6621
Religion: Catholic
MyDogma8MyKarma wrote:
Faustina, I broke this out of the Megachurch Parody thread so as to not muddy the waters. (I slay myself with my puns!)

Faustina wrote:
Yet would it be perfect justice for God to refuse entry into the Kingdom of an innocent person?

Faustina, make no mistake, God does not owe salvation to anyone. 'Could', 'can', 'hope' do not signify 'must'.
Quote:
Meaning, a person who never heard the Gospel? One who didn't have faith because they never heard the Gospel?

Ignorant does not mean 'innocent'. We are all under Original Sin. Not only that, but Faith does not come from hearing the Gospel. Faith comes from God to begin with. If Faith comes from hearing the Gospel, then everyone hearing the Gospel would have Faith, and we know that is not true. Remember, Faith is a supernatural gift from God. Only God can reveal God. As Scripture tells us “without Faith it is impossible to please God.”
Quote:
So what does God do in that case? God cannot condemn an innocent person as that would not be God and perfect justice.

While the Church holds out the hope of salvation, and recognizes that God can save them, do not confuse this with God having an obligation to save them. We are His Creatures to do with as He Wills.
Quote:
But I do believe that it is God that gives the gift of faith.

And this is very contradictive of what you have just said. God does give the gift of Faith, yet you have supposed that He would withhold this gift and then save the person whom He has withheld it from. That just plain does not make sense.

It is absurd to assume that someone who has not heard the Gospel and has no Faith in even the existence of God must be saved by God, whereas we who have been given the gift of Faith can only have hope for eternal life.


Uh, I was trying to develop a line of reasoning by asking AJ specific questions and getting specific responses from him. Perhaps it would have been better for you to ask me what I had in mind with my posting before you decided to make it a topic involving me. Personally, Elizabeth, I don't appreciate having postings like yours that edited the original in such a manner. Especially when the reasoning behind my original posting on this was not yet revealed.

_________________
ecclesiastes 3

For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven:
a time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up what is planted;
a time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;


Jesus, Divine Mercy, I trust in you


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Faustina ~ for further discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 3:09 pm 
Offline
Neener Queen
Neener Queen
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:33 pm
Posts: 9728
Location: Too Tired to Remember
Religion: Catholic
Really? You presented quite the case that God would automatically save the 'innocent' person who never heard the Gospel. Now if this was not your intention, then I apologize. But I read your post several times and knowing that the Catholic Church does not teach that anyone is automatically saved or that God is obligated to save any of His Creatures, was concerned at the bent of your post. Which is why I broke it out of the Parody thread in order to discuss what you were posting. I also broke it out so to not distract AJ from what was going in that particular thread.

I am not sure what direction you are taking this in, but it doesn't look to be the Catholic one to me.

_________________
Formerly known as ElizabethF

You cannot have Jesus as your brother and then reject Mary as your mother. You cannot love His Father as your Father, and then refuse to love His mother.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Faustina ~ for further discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 3:20 pm 
Offline
Handmaids of the Lord
Handmaids of the Lord
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 7:59 pm
Posts: 6621
Religion: Catholic
MyDogma8MyKarma wrote:
Really? You presented quite the case that God would automatically save the 'innocent' person who never heard the Gospel. Now if this was not your intention, then I apologize. But I read your post several times and knowing that the Catholic Church does not teach that anyone is automatically saved or that God is obligated to save any of His Creatures, was concerned at the bent of your post. Which is why I broke it out of the Parody thread in order to discuss what you were posting. I also broke it out so to not distract AJ from what was going in that particular thread.

I am not sure what direction you are taking this in, but it doesn't look to be the Catholic one to me.


As I said, you should have asked me what track I was taking. But you didn't. As far as I'm concerned, this thread is over.
And by the way, I'm not a protestant. I would appreciate it if you didn't speak to me like I am.

_________________
ecclesiastes 3

For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven:
a time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up what is planted;
a time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;


Jesus, Divine Mercy, I trust in you


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Faustina ~ for further discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 3:33 pm 
Offline
Neener Queen
Neener Queen
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:33 pm
Posts: 9728
Location: Too Tired to Remember
Religion: Catholic
Fine. If I have insulted you with wanting to understand further by discussing the matter what you have posted and addressing my own concerns concerning the particular language you used, then I apologize.

If you do not wish to enlighten me how I have misinterpreted your posts, that is your prerogative.

Quite frankly I did not see that you were leading AJ down a 'track'. I saw what you wrote as quite explicit.

_________________
Formerly known as ElizabethF

You cannot have Jesus as your brother and then reject Mary as your mother. You cannot love His Father as your Father, and then refuse to love His mother.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Faustina ~ for further discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 3:46 pm 
Offline
Handmaids of the Lord
Handmaids of the Lord
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 7:59 pm
Posts: 6621
Religion: Catholic
MyDogma8MyKarma wrote:
Fine. If I have insulted you with wanting to understand further by discussing the matter what you have posted and addressing my own concerns concerning the particular language you used, then I apologize.

If you do not wish to enlighten me how I have misinterpreted your posts, that is your prerogative.

Quite frankly I did not see that you were leading AJ down a 'track'. I saw what you wrote as quite explicit.


Enough, Elizabeth. I stated what my intentions are/were. If you can't accept that then I guess you are basically calling me a liar. Now please have the last word and end it.

_________________
ecclesiastes 3

For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven:
a time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up what is planted;
a time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;


Jesus, Divine Mercy, I trust in you


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 1   [ 7 posts ]   


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests


Jump to: