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 Post subject: Guettee's book on the Orthodox Church
PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 4:33 pm 
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Has anyone read Fr. Wladimir Guettee's book «The Papacy; its historic origin and primitive relations with the Eastern Churches»? It is not the newest one dedicated to an issue of dialogue between Roman Catholic Church and Orthodox Church (was published originally, in French, in 1863), but has the advantage of being available on Google Books website for free. Another advantage from the point of view of Roman Catholics is that the author was originally a Roman Catholic priest who converted in 1862 to Orthodox Christianity and adopted the name Wladimir (original one was Rene-Francois). Information on the author is available in Russian in «Orthodox Encyclopedia», an ongoing, multi-volume, publication, edited by the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia. As a result of submission made by the Moscow Spiritual Academy, Fr. Guette received a degree of doctor of theology for this one and other polemical works. Let's discuss arguments from this book in this thread.

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Last edited by Vadim on Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Guettee's book
PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 8:03 pm 
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I'm not sure how the fact that he's an apostate makes it good from a Catholic point of view.


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 Post subject: Re: Guettee's book
PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 8:27 pm 
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2088 The first commandment requires us to nourish and protect our faith with prudence and vigilance, and to reject everything that is opposed to it. There are various ways of sinning against faith:

Voluntary doubt about the faith disregards or refuses to hold as true what God has revealed and the Church proposes for belief. Involuntary doubt refers to hesitation in believing, difficulty in overcoming objections connected with the faith, or also anxiety aroused by its obscurity. If deliberately cultivated doubt can lead to spiritual blindness.


Vadim wishes people to commit the serious sin of voluntary doubt or of placing themselves in a near occasion of sin. I don't recommend it.


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 Post subject: Re: Guettee's book
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:09 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I'm not sure how the fact that he's an apostate makes it good from a Catholic point of view.


For the same reason that apostle Paul wrote more Epistles than other apostles did. This reason, as St. Cyril of Jerusalem explains [*], is that originally, he was an enemy and persecutor of the true faith, so his later conversion to the true faith proved that his writings were not only theoretical arguments, but also practical ones. The fact that apostle Paul's arguments convinced himself was an argument, from the point of view of other Jews who were enemies of faith too, for truthfulness and persuasiveness of these arguments.

[*] «I am truly filled with wonder at the wise dispensation of the Holy Spirit; how He confined the Epistles of the rest to a small number, but to Paul the former persecutor gave the privilege of writing fourteen. For it was not because Peter or John was less that He restrained the gift; God forbid! But in order that the doctrine might be beyond question, He granted to the former enemy and persecutor the privilege of writing more, in order that we all might thus be made believers.» (St. Cyril of Jerusalem. Catechetical Lecture 10, § 18. )


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 Post subject: Re: Guettee's book on the Orthodox Church
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:10 pm 
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That makes it good from your point of view. It doesn't make it good for those whom you are attempting to seduce from the true Faith.

I know what you are and what you are doing here, and for my part, you and your activities are not welcome.


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 Post subject: Re: Guettee's book on the Orthodox Church
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:25 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
It doesn't make it good for those whom you are attempting to seduce from the true Faith.

By «seducing» you mean what? I am not proposing money for your, or anyone else's conversion to Orthodox Christianity. Indeed, can give you an example which shows that Roman Catholic priests sin sometimes in this respect:

    I must say that the Catholic Church is rapidly losing influence in Latin America, because of her close ties with the upper classes of society. Many of the poor who are the majority of the population of the region are disappointed in the Catholic pastors and joined the Protestants, Mormons and other sectarians. Metropolitan Andres (Giron), the head of the Order of white clergy of St. Basil the Great in Guatemala, was formerly a Catholic priest. He saw that his leaders were focused on the rich, and in the early 1990’s left the Catholic Church, because he wanted to work for the people.

(Metropolitan Andres Giron mentioned here joined the Orthodox Church)


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 Post subject: Re: Guettee's book
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:51 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Vadim wishes people to commit the serious sin of voluntary doubt or of placing themselves in a near occasion of sin. I don't recommend it.

I just propose to fulfil the following decision of the Fifth Ecumenical Council:

    [E]ven though individual apostles abounded with the grace of the Holy Spirit so that they did not need the advice of others over what had to be transacted, yet they had no wish to decide in any other way the question that was mooted, whether the Gentiles ought to be circumcised, before they met together and each of them confirmed his statements from the testimonies of the divine scriptures. Accordingly it was in common that they all pronounced judgement on the matter, writing to the Gentiles and stating in a declaration that ‘when we all assembled together it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to impose no other burden on you except these necessary things, that you abstain from what has been offered to idols, from blood, from what has been strangled, and from fornication.’ [Acts of the Apostles 15:25,28–9]

    The holy fathers also who convened at various times in the holy four councils followed ancient precedent and decreed in common on the heresies and problems that had arisen, since it is certain that it is through joint examination, when there is expounded what needs to be discussed on both sides, that the light of truth dispels the darkness of lies.

    For neither is it permissible in the case of the faith for anyone to anticipate the judgement of the church in her totality, since each person needs the help of his neighbour, as Solomon says in Proverbs, ‘A brother who provides help to his brother will be raised up like a fortified city, and is strong like a kingdom with foundations,’ [Prov 18:19. The quotations in this paragraph are not verbally exact] and again he says in Ecclesiastes, ‘Two are better than one, and they have a good reward for their labour, because if one falls his comrade will raise him up; and woe to that single man when he falls and there is no second man to raise him up,’ [Eccl 4:9–10] and again, ‘Even if one man would prevail, two resist him, and a triple cord is not easily broken.’ [Eccl 4:12] And the Lord himself says, ‘Verily I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about any matter for which you ask, it will be given to you by my Father in heaven, for wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there am I with them in the midst of them.’ [1]

If even you think that we Orthodox Christians are heretics or schismatics, nonetheless, this decision tells us that controversial issues should be considered «through joint examination, when there is expounded what needs to be discussed on both sides». Do you agree with this decision?

[1] The Acts of the Council of Constantinople of 553 with related texts on the Three Chapters Controversy. Transl. with an introd. and notes by Richard Price. Liverpool University Press, 2009. Vol. 2. Pp. 110-111 (Session VIII, 2 June).


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 Post subject: Re: Guettee's book on the Orthodox Church
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:58 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I know what you are

What do you mean? I thought that in the context of our current discussion, all you need to know about me is that I'm Orthodox Christian, but if you want to know something else about me, you can ask. Maybe I should also add that I don't receive money for participation in this forum, nor am I a priest.


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 Post subject: Re: Guettee's book on the Orthodox Church
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:17 pm 
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I mean that you are a wolf here to pray on the sheep. As a shepherd, it’s my job to protect sheep. So go away, please.


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 Post subject: Re: Guettee's book on the Orthodox Church
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:22 pm 
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What is going on here?

If one is accused of an offense, it is incumbent on his accuser to clearly set forth the details of the offense.


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 Post subject: Re: Guettee's book on the Orthodox Church
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:10 pm 
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Look at Vadim's posts, both now and in the past. He is here to persuade people that Catholicism is wrong and Orthodoxy is correct. He's not here for a discussion. He's here to subvert. There is really no doubt about it. He even sent me a FB message a few years ago pursuing the same thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Guettee's book on the Orthodox Church
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:37 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Look at Vadim's posts, both now and in the past. He is here to persuade people that Catholicism is wrong and Orthodoxy is correct. He's not here for a discussion. He's here to subvert. There is really no doubt about it. He even sent me a FB message a few years ago pursuing the same thing.

The best cure for people who try to subvert others is to let them talk. Pretty soon others will see through them.

But I don't see any specific offense called out, and no refutation or counter argument.


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 Post subject: Re: Guettee's book on the Orthodox Church
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:02 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Look at Vadim's posts, both now and in the past. He is here to persuade people that Catholicism is wrong and Orthodoxy is correct. He's not here for a discussion. He's here to subvert. There is really no doubt about it. He even sent me a FB message a few years ago pursuing the same thing.

I sent that Facebook message in April 2017, at the time when I was not participating in this forum temporarily (as far as I remember), nor was I planning to return, for the reason which I stated here. I've never sent private messages of this kind to any other participant of this forum, whether via Facebook or private messages of this forum, except for just one message I once sent to Head Administrator Signum Crucis. She replied: «You can post here and discuss your views here, but you cannot try to lead people out of Christ's Holy Catholic Church, which is under the leadership of the Roman See.» I've always obeyed this demand.

As concerns the reason of my being here… I think discussion is not the same as inquisition. I'm not asking you questions of this kind, so I'm not sure whether I should reply to your questions of this kind. Have you read this book or any other books on the dialogue between the Roman Catholic Church and Orthodox Church? If yes, which books have you read? If no, then how can you be sure that it is Roman Catholic Church which is true and not the Orthodox Church? These are questions which I'm not asking, because I think that discussion is not the same as inquisition.


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 Post subject: Re: Guettee's book on the Orthodox Church
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:29 am 
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Vadim wrote:
If no, then how can you be sure that it is Roman Catholic Church which is true and not the Orthodox Church? These are questions which I'm not asking, because I think that discussion is not the same as inquisition.

We can be sure because the Catholic Church preserves the primacy of Peter.

Let me point out that the Catholic Church respects the Orthodox sacraments but some Orthodox churches do not respect Catholic sacraments. On the Catholic side, there is no obstacle to unity, as long as everyone respects the primacy of Peter.


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 Post subject: Re: Guettee's book on the Orthodox Church
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 4:21 pm 
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Vern Humphrey wrote:
Vadim wrote:
If no, then how can you be sure that it is Roman Catholic Church which is true and not the Orthodox Church?

We can be sure because the Catholic Church preserves the primacy of Peter.

Defenders of the doctrine of the primacy of Peter see its basis in several evangelical excerpts — in particular, in Matthew 16:18-19 («you are Peter, and on this rock … »). But let me point out, that, as St. Vincent of Lerins says,

    owing to the depth of Holy Scripture, all do not accept it in one and the same sense, but one understands its words in one way, another in another; so that it seems to be capable of as many interpretations as there are interpreters. For Novatian expounds it one way, Sabellius another, Donatus another, Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, another, Photinus, Apollinaris, Priscillian, another, Iovinian, Pelagius, Celestius, another, lastly, Nestorius another. Therefore, it is very necessary, on account of so great intricacies of such various error, that the rule for the right understanding of the prophets and apostles should be framed in accordance with the standard of Ecclesiastical and Catholic interpretation. [1]

This is precisely what Fr. Guettee does in this book — he sets forth «Ecclesiastical and Catholic interpretation». He quotes, for instance, from St. Augustine's Retractations and comments as follows:

    «In that book, I said in one place, in speaking of St. Peter, that the Church had been built on him as on the rock. This thought is sung by many in the verses of the blessed Ambrose, who says of the cock, that ‘when it crew the Rock of the Church deplored his fault.’ But I know that subsequently I very frequently adopted this sense, that when the Lord said, ‘Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,’ he meant by this rock, the one which Peter had confessed in saying, ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God;’ so that Peter, called by the name of this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon that rock, and which has received the keys of the kingdom of heaven. In fact, it was not said to him, Thou art the rock; but thou art Peter. The rock was Christ. Peter having confessed him as all the Church confesses him, he was called Peter. Between these two sentiments, let the reader choose the most probable.»

    Thus St. Augustine condemns neither of the interpretations given to the text, Thou art Peter, etc. But he evidently regards as the better the one which he most frequently used. Yet this does not prevent the Romish theologians from quoting this Father in favour of the first interpretation, which he admitted but once, and renounced, though without formally condemning it. [2]

[1] Commonitory. Chapter 2. § [5.].

[2] Pp. 175-176.


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 Post subject: Re: Guettee's book on the Orthodox Church
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 6:38 pm 
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Vadim wrote:
Vern Humphrey wrote:
Vadim wrote:
If no, then how can you be sure that it is Roman Catholic Church which is true and not the Orthodox Church?

We can be sure because the Catholic Church preserves the primacy of Peter.

Defenders of the doctrine of the primacy of Peter see its basis in several evangelical excerpts — in particular, in Matthew 16:18-19 («you are Peter, and on this rock … »). But let me point out, that, as St. Vincent of Lerins says,

    owing to the depth of Holy Scripture, all do not accept it in one and the same sense, but one understands its words in one way, another in another; so that it seems to be capable of as many interpretations as there are interpreters. For Novatian expounds it one way, Sabellius another, Donatus another, Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, another, Photinus, Apollinaris, Priscillian, another, Iovinian, Pelagius, Celestius, another, lastly, Nestorius another. Therefore, it is very necessary, on account of so great intricacies of such various error, that the rule for the right understanding of the prophets and apostles should be framed in accordance with the standard of Ecclesiastical and Catholic interpretation. [1]

This is precisely what Fr. Guettee does in this book — he sets forth «Ecclesiastical and Catholic interpretation». He quotes, for instance, from St. Augustine's Retractations and comments as follows:

    «In that book, I said in one place, in speaking of St. Peter, that the Church had been built on him as on the rock. This thought is sung by many in the verses of the blessed Ambrose, who says of the cock, that ‘when it crew the Rock of the Church deplored his fault.’ But I know that subsequently I very frequently adopted this sense, that when the Lord said, ‘Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,’ he meant by this rock, the one which Peter had confessed in saying, ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God;’ so that Peter, called by the name of this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon that rock, and which has received the keys of the kingdom of heaven. In fact, it was not said to him, Thou art the rock; but thou art Peter. The rock was Christ. Peter having confessed him as all the Church confesses him, he was called Peter. Between these two sentiments, let the reader choose the most probable.»

    Thus St. Augustine condemns neither of the interpretations given to the text, Thou art Peter, etc. But he evidently regards as the better the one which he most frequently used. Yet this does not prevent the Romish theologians from quoting this Father in favour of the first interpretation, which he admitted but once, and renounced, though without formally condemning it. [2]

[1] Commonitory. Chapter 2. § [5.].

[2] Pp. 175-176.

Do you say "Peter" doesn't mean "rock?"

It's hard to read Acts and not see Peter as the leader of the apostles -- as the overseer of the overseers.


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 Post subject: Re: Guettee's book on the Orthodox Church
PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:02 pm 
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Vern Humphrey wrote:
Do you say "Peter" doesn't mean "rock?"

Are you asking about my translation of «Peter» or about St. Augustine's one?

Vern Humphrey wrote:
It's hard to read Acts and not see Peter as the leader of the apostles -- as the overseer of the overseers.


How about Acts 8:14? Doesn't this excerpt demonstrate that St. «Peter was subordinate, not only to the apostolic college, of which he was a member, but to a lesser number of apostles in convention at Jerusalem; since he received from them a mission»? This is how Fr. Guettee comments this excerpt (p. 50):

    It may be even said that Scripture formally contradicts this authority [«sovereign authority that the Romish theologians ascribe to St. Peter and to the bishops of Rome, whom they consider his successors.»]. We have already quoted some words of Christ sufficiently positive. The book of the Acts, and the Epistles contain facts demonstrating that St. Peter did not enjoy any superiority in the apostolic college. In fact, it is said in the Acts, (8:14,) “Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John.” Peter was subordinate, not only to the apostolic college, of which he was a member, but to a lesser number of apostles in convention at Jerusalem; since he received from them a mission.


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