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 Post subject: Re: Reform of the Reform?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:39 pm 
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Alexandros wrote:

It's a meal/sacrifice - not just a meal.


But it WAS a meal.

Matthew, 26, 20 - 23:
20 When evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the Twelve. 21 And while they were eating, he said, “Truly I tell you, one of you will betray me.”
22 They were very sad and began to say to him one after the other, “Surely you don’t mean me, Lord?”
23 Jesus replied, “The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me.

Clearly, the Apostles WERE taking the bread and other victuals in their hands.
Alexandros wrote:

You cannot keep bringing up the concept of a meal and ignore that it is the true and real sacrifice of Calvary, hence elevating above a mere meal for sustenance.
If it's elevated above a mere meal by being the real sacrifice then extraordinary rubrics can logically be applied, since after all it was to become the apex of worship.

Now where did THAT come from? Who denigrated the sacrifice? Not me.

I only pointed out that they were eating a meal, and the wording of the gospel makes it clear that they were dipping into the bowl -- that is, taking in the hand.


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 Post subject: Re: Reform of the Reform?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:17 pm 
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Vern Humphrey wrote:
But it WAS a meal.

Matthew, 26, 20 - 23:
20 When evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the Twelve. 21 And while they were eating, he said, “Truly I tell you, one of you will betray me.”
22 They were very sad and began to say to him one after the other, “Surely you don’t mean me, Lord?”
23 Jesus replied, “The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me.

Clearly, the Apostles WERE taking the bread and other victuals in their hands.


If you read beyond verse 25, you will see that the Institution of the Holy Sacrifice and the priesthood comes after the initial meal. So what they were eating in verses 20-23 that you are citing is not Holy Communion.

Quote:
Alexandros wrote:

You cannot keep bringing up the concept of a meal and ignore that it is the true and real sacrifice of Calvary, hence elevating above a mere meal for sustenance.
If it's elevated above a mere meal by being the real sacrifice then extraordinary rubrics can logically be applied, since after all it was to become the apex of worship.

Now where did THAT come from? Who denigrated the sacrifice? Not me.

I only pointed out that they were eating a meal, and the wording of the gospel makes it clear that they were dipping into the bowl -- that is, taking in the hand.


"Denigrated" is an attack. I said you ignored it. There's a difference.
You keep calling it a meal. I call it both a sacrifice and a meal (as well as the apex of worship).

Again, it is not clear after verse 25 if the Apostles received the Holy Eucharist by hand, as opposed to what happened in verses 20-23. But to reiterate:

1. The Last Supper is the institution of the Sacrifice of the Mass and the Holy Priesthood (after the verses you cite). Therefore, it was not a mere meal at this point. Hence, its extraordinary character may have seen extraordinary rubrics/practices.

2. No one can say with 100% certainty that the Apostles were given Holy Communion in the hand, tongue, etc.

3. What the Apostles did doesn't matter as they are supposed to handle the Sacred Species with their hands anyway. The context about Communion in the Hand we were discussing was about reforming what lay people should do that shows better reverence towards our Lord and helps the faithful's perception of the sacred/true doctrine. We're not talking about how the ordained should handle the Sacred Species.

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 Post subject: Re: Reform of the Reform?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:20 pm 
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Alexandros wrote:
Vern Humphrey wrote:
But it WAS a meal.

Matthew, 26, 20 - 23:
20 When evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the Twelve. 21 And while they were eating, he said, “Truly I tell you, one of you will betray me.”
22 They were very sad and began to say to him one after the other, “Surely you don’t mean me, Lord?”
23 Jesus replied, “The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me.

Clearly, the Apostles WERE taking the bread and other victuals in their hands.


If you read beyond verse 25, you will see that the Institution of the Holy Sacrifice and the priesthood comes after the initial meal. So what they were eating in verses 20-23 that you are citing is not Holy Communion.


Okay, lets go beyond verse 25 -- all the way to:

Matthew 26:26: While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body."

When Jesus says, "this is my body" I tend to believe Him.


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 Post subject: Re: Reform of the Reform?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:52 am 
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Vern Humphrey wrote:
Alexandros wrote:
Vern Humphrey wrote:
But it WAS a meal.

Matthew, 26, 20 - 23:
20 When evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the Twelve. 21 And while they were eating, he said, “Truly I tell you, one of you will betray me.”
22 They were very sad and began to say to him one after the other, “Surely you don’t mean me, Lord?”
23 Jesus replied, “The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me.

Clearly, the Apostles WERE taking the bread and other victuals in their hands.


If you read beyond verse 25, you will see that the Institution of the Holy Sacrifice and the priesthood comes after the initial meal. So what they were eating in verses 20-23 that you are citing is not Holy Communion.


Okay, lets go beyond verse 25 -- all the way to:

Matthew 26:26: While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body."

When Jesus says, "this is my body" I tend to believe Him.


Yes, that's exactly my point. The words of consecration are spoken at verse 26 and from that point forward It is now Holy Communion.

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 Post subject: Re: Reform of the Reform?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:08 am 
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Alexandros wrote:
Vern Humphrey wrote:
Alexandros wrote:
Vern Humphrey wrote:
But it WAS a meal.

Matthew, 26, 20 - 23:
20 When evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the Twelve. 21 And while they were eating, he said, “Truly I tell you, one of you will betray me.”
22 They were very sad and began to say to him one after the other, “Surely you don’t mean me, Lord?”
23 Jesus replied, “The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me.

Clearly, the Apostles WERE taking the bread and other victuals in their hands.


If you read beyond verse 25, you will see that the Institution of the Holy Sacrifice and the priesthood comes after the initial meal. So what they were eating in verses 20-23 that you are citing is not Holy Communion.


Okay, lets go beyond verse 25 -- all the way to:

Matthew 26:26: While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body."

When Jesus says, "this is my body" I tend to believe Him.


Yes, that's exactly my point. The words of consecration are spoken at verse 26 and from that point forward It is now Holy Communion.

It was the First Communion. And they received it in the hand.


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 Post subject: Re: Reform of the Reform?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:03 pm 
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Vern Humphrey wrote:
It was the First Communion. And they received it in the hand.


1. The food prior to verse 25 is not Holy Communion.

2. After verse 25 is Holy Communion.

3. There's nothing in the text that says they received in the hand - no can claim how they received with 100% certainty (that includes me).

4. If they received in the hand, it doesn't justify anything as we are talking about laity and not ordained priests who are supposed to handle the sacred species with their hands anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Reform of the Reform?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:16 pm 
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To further bolster my fourth point, here is what I originally said along with your response:

Vern Humphrey wrote:
Alexandros wrote:

The indult for Holy Communion in the Hand could be phased out over a 5-10 year period (or whatever amount of time - and yes I know it existed in the transitional phases before the 1970 missal).

That's one of the "reforms" I don't object to -- after all, at the original communion, at the Last Supper, the Apostles received in the hand.


When people say "Communion in the hand" they mean lay reception.
I further indicate this because I refer to the "indult" - which means it for laity.
Next, I keep repeating myself about how I (and others) are talking about lay reception.

Your original objection explicitly states that Communion in the Hand is fine because the Apostles did it.

Even if the scripture explicitly stated they received Holy Communion in the hand your objection is a moot point because we're talking about lay people not the ordained Apostles.

You would have to argue how lay people should be able to handle the Sacred Species like the ordained, not simply referring to scripture passages about ordained men which doesn't even say they received in the hand anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Reform of the Reform?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:36 am 
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Well, in the traditional rite a cleric assisting in choir would receive on the tongue, so I don't think "communion in the hand" means just lay reception. Of course given that the Apostles were also ordained at the Last Supper they could have been concelebrating.

But in any case to say simply that "the Apostles received in the hand" as though it were an absolute certainty is a bit silly. Centuries ago, Martin Luther believed that the Last Supper was offered at a round table and that the Apostles and Our Lord faced one another (and therefore the liturgy ought to be celebrated the same way). We now know that this probably wasn't the case; Our Lord and His Apostles were facing more or less the same direction.

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 Post subject: Re: Reform of the Reform?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:39 am 
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Matthew 26:23 Jesus replied, "The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me."

He did not say, "The one who has stuck his tongue into the bowl with me will betray me."


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 Post subject: Re: Reform of the Reform?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:12 pm 
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Vern Humphrey wrote:
Matthew 26:23 Jesus replied, "The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me."

He did not say, "The one who has stuck his tongue into the bowl with me will betray me."


And ... ?

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 Post subject: Re: Reform of the Reform?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:33 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Vern Humphrey wrote:
Matthew 26:23 Jesus replied, "The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me."

He did not say, "The one who has stuck his tongue into the bowl with me will betray me."


And ... ?

Jesus Himself says they are receiving in the hand, not on the tongue.


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 Post subject: Re: Reform of the Reform?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:16 pm 
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I don't think I can stress enough that Matthew 26:23 is not describing the reception of Holy Communion

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 Post subject: Re: Reform of the Reform?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:24 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
I don't think I can stress enough that Matthew 26:23 is not describing the reception of Holy Communion

So where is the reception of Holy Communion described? Where in the Gospels are we told they received on the tongue?


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 Post subject: Re: Reform of the Reform?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:48 pm 
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Vern Humphrey wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
I don't think I can stress enough that Matthew 26:23 is not describing the reception of Holy Communion

So where is the reception of Holy Communion described?

Matthew 26:26-29, for example.

Quote:
Where in the Gospels are we told they received on the tongue?

We're not. But that's not at all what I've claimed - I simply pointed out that we can't be certain.

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 Post subject: Re: Reform of the Reform?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:51 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
I don't think I can stress enough that Matthew 26:23 is not describing the reception of Holy Communion

Can you explain please

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 Post subject: Re: Reform of the Reform?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:21 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
I don't think I can stress enough that Matthew 26:23 is not describing the reception of Holy Communion

Can you explain please

Our Lord had not even consecrated the bread and wine yet

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 Post subject: Re: Reform of the Reform?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:11 am 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
I don't think I can stress enough that Matthew 26:23 is not describing the reception of Holy Communion

Can you explain please

Our Lord had not even consecrated the bread and wine yet


Matthew 26, 26-27:

26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”

27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the[b] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

When Jesus said those words, the bread and wine were consecrated.


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 Post subject: Re: Reform of the Reform?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 1:10 pm 
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Vern Humphrey wrote:
Matthew 26, 26-27:

26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”

27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the[b] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

When Jesus said those words, the bread and wine were consecrated.

Yes, note that these verses come after Matthew 26:23

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 Post subject: Re: Reform of the Reform?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 3:02 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Vern Humphrey wrote:
Matthew 26, 26-27:

26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”

27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the[b] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

When Jesus said those words, the bread and wine were consecrated.

Yes, note that these verses come after Matthew 26:23

Don't let me put words in your mouth, but do you claim that He then told them to put out their tongues?


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 Post subject: Re: Reform of the Reform?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:04 am 
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I don't claim anything except that we don't (and can't) know

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