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 Post subject: Solesmes and pronounciation of Latin
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:09 pm 
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I am confused about the Solesmes tradition of Gregorian chant. They put the ictus on syllables that shouod not be stressed. They want other syllables to be stressed then when speaking. Why do they think that other syllables should be stressed when singing?
They want QUI tol-LIS rather than the correct qui TOLlis.
Or maybe there is a french way of speaking Latin that I am not familiar with.
Please explain.


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 Post subject: Re: Solesmes and pronounciation of Latin
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:46 pm 
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Can you give an example of when this occurs?

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 Post subject: Re: Solesmes and pronounciation of Latin
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 3:20 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Can you give an example of when this occurs?

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Sam_6AkiuuU/maxresdefault.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: Solesmes and pronounciation of Latin
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 3:32 pm 
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I'll have to review chant notation, but I know that chant is not sung with that syllable accented.

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 Post subject: Re: Solesmes and pronounciation of Latin
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 3:38 pm 
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i think i know what's being asked, but would be helpful to have an actual example..
are you talking about 'qui tollis' where it falls in the gloria or the agnus dei?

Because the only time you get one note per syllable in 'qui tollis' in the gloria is in mass VIII and XV... and the only time for the agnus dei is ehhh.... in the requiem mass.
(to be fair, i've only ever done mass I, VIII, IX, XV, and XVII...and there's no gloria in XVII).

when you get three, separate, individual notes per syllable, it's perfectly common to get qui-TOL-lis or quitol-LIS ....

assuming we're talking about the same thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Solesmes and pronounciation of Latin
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 3:42 pm 
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there's no instruction at the front of the liber for that little mark underneath the two notes.

i've HEARD that it is used in some places as a very slight hold for people to get on the same key... which might make sense to have it on the QUI, since the rest of the choir is joining in on that word... but makes no sense to have it on the LIS since it's the third same note in succession.

those little marks do not exist everywhere in the ordinaries. i'm looking at mass viii right now, and such marks do not exist on any part of 5 notes that make up 'qui tollis'


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 Post subject: Re: Solesmes and pronounciation of Latin
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 3:45 pm 
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i should also note that it's WAY more offending to the ears to hear a choir chant, for example, "in ex-sell-sis" vs. "in ex-chel-sis"


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 Post subject: Re: Solesmes and pronounciation of Latin
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:18 pm 
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tAnGo wrote:
i think i know what's being asked, but would be helpful to have an actual example..
are you talking about 'qui tollis' where it falls in the gloria or the agnus dei?

Because the only time you get one note per syllable in 'qui tollis' in the gloria is in mass VIII and XV... and the only time for the agnus dei is ehhh.... in the requiem mass.
(to be fair, i've only ever done mass I, VIII, IX, XV, and XVII...and there's no gloria in XVII).

when you get three, separate, individual notes per syllable, it's perfectly common to get qui-TOL-lis or quitol-LIS ....

assuming we're talking about the same thing.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Sam_6AkiuuU/maxresdefault.jpg
They want us to accent the word Qui but I would refuse this. I want to accent Tol in Tollis. I am asking why this is?
My teacher says I should try to sing like I speak.
The French sings like this: https://open.spotify.com/track/0I4nMxQU ... vh3nv-HrRA


Last edited by ingenting on Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Solesmes and pronounciation of Latin
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:21 pm 
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yeah, i saw it..... and here was my response in case you missed it:

there's no instruction at the front of the liber for that little mark underneath the two notes.

i've HEARD that it is used in some places as a very slight hold for people to get on the same key... which might make sense to have it on the QUI, since the rest of the choir is joining in on that word... but makes no sense to have it on the LIS since it's the third same note in succession.

those little marks do not exist everywhere in the ordinaries. i'm looking at mass viii right now, and such marks do not exist on any part of 5 notes that make up 'qui tollis'


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 Post subject: Re: Solesmes and pronounciation of Latin
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:28 pm 
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tAnGo wrote:
yeah, i saw it..... and here was my response in case you missed it:

there's no instruction at the front of the liber for that little mark underneath the two notes.

i've HEARD that it is used in some places as a very slight hold for people to get on the same key... which might make sense to have it on the QUI, since the rest of the choir is joining in on that word... but makes no sense to have it on the LIS since it's the third same note in succession.

those little marks do not exist everywhere in the ordinaries. i'm looking at mass viii right now, and such marks do not exist on any part of 5 notes that make up 'qui tollis'

https://open.spotify.com/track/0I4nMxQU ... vh3nv-HrRA
If you listen to the recording they sing tol-LIS. Why?

Non-French people sing like this (which is way more natural):
https://open.spotify.com/track/39KUqqAp ... Ww2cjOpOMg


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 Post subject: Re: Solesmes and pronounciation of Latin
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:41 pm 
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it just takes me to the whole list.... which one you want me to hear?

edit: nevermind. i don't have a spotify account. won't let me listen to any of them.


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 Post subject: Re: Solesmes and pronounciation of Latin
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:11 pm 
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Right. Me neither, and not going to get one. Let me see if it's on YouTube.

Here we go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_QAtl4q6SE

I don't hear an accent on -IS.

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 Post subject: Re: Solesmes and pronounciation of Latin
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:27 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Right. Me neither, and not going to get one. Let me see if it's on YouTube.

Here we go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_QAtl4q6SE

I don't hear an accent on -IS.


me neither. this recording sounds like what i was trying to describe as qui-tol-lis.

there IS a recording out there that does sound like quitol-lis as opposed to qui-tol-lis... might have been from the monks in south america...


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