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 Post subject: Beowulf - Translation by Chickering
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:22 pm 
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For my birthday I got Beowulf translated by Chickering and Tolkien.

Per the advice of Dave Griffey (Daffey Thoughts) he said that he preferred Chickering. So that's the one I'm reading first. Chickering's commentary is very interesting.

He explains how some scholars take the view that Heorot (the hall built by Hrothgar) is like Earth (or maybe like the pre-fallen Earth - the Garden of Eden). With Grendel playing a role like that of Satan.

But another, Martin Bickman, holds the view that it's more appropriately viewed as the Tower of Babel stating, "Like the Tower of Babel, Heorot is built by peoples from all over... in both cases, the builders are at first unaware of the vanity of their effort, that there are factors operating completely beyond their control, forces that dwarf the will and power of mortals. The juxtaposition of the building of Heorot and the Creation song is meant to accentuate the differences, not the similarities, between the two events."

In the story, right before the construction of Heorot there is a retelling of the Genesis account of the Creation of Earth.

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 Post subject: Re: Beowulf - Translation by Chickering
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:12 pm 
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Chickering should read Tolkien on allegory. :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: Beowulf - Translation by Chickering
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:55 pm 
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If Greenie is saying what I think he is, then I would offer that seeing Beowulf as any sort of Christian or Biblical allegory is a mistake and wrong.

Until this moment, I don't think I knew what "reading into" actually meant.

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 Post subject: Re: Beowulf - Translation by Chickering
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:39 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
Chickering should read Tolkien on allegory. :fyi:


I must be missing something.... what do you mean by this?

Thanks

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 Post subject: Re: Beowulf - Translation by Chickering
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:49 pm 
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Highlander wrote:
If Greenie is saying what I think he is, then I would offer that seeing Beowulf as any sort of Christian or Biblical allegory is a mistake and wrong.

Until this moment, I don't think I knew what "reading into" actually meant.



In Chickering's commentary he is referencing multiple scholars (Tolkien, Kaske, Margaret Goldsmith, and others) who are finding references and nods to Christianity.
None saying anything that it's a direct allegory like Aslan to Christ.

Chickering says, "The point of these equations is not to reduce three stories to one allegorical abstract, but to show that, for the themes of creation and destruction, the Beowulf poet would have found a basic story structure in both pagan and Christian myth."

If anything maybe typology... Chickering notes one scholar who says that if Beowulf is modeled on Christ (by the poet who wrote the poem we have) then it would be to show the imperfection of Beowulf. He died fighting the dragon, but his death didn't save mankind; while Christ's death did.

Tolkien views the battle with the dragon differently.... as a critique on pelagianism. That the battle with the dragon is Beowulf's battle with his struggles with malice.... a battle he cannot win without divine grace, therefore, he loses.

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 Post subject: Re: Beowulf - Translation by Chickering
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:37 pm 
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p.falk wrote:
Highlander wrote:
If Greenie is saying what I think he is, then I would offer that seeing Beowulf as any sort of Christian or Biblical allegory is a mistake and wrong.

Until this moment, I don't think I knew what "reading into" actually meant.



In Chickering's commentary he is referencing multiple scholars (Tolkien, Kaske, Margaret Goldsmith, and others) who are finding references and nods to Christianity.
None saying anything that it's a direct allegory like Aslan to Christ.

Chickering says, "The point of these equations is not to reduce three stories to one allegorical abstract, but to show that, for the themes of creation and destruction, the Beowulf poet would have found a basic story structure in both pagan and Christian myth."

If anything maybe typology... Chickering notes one scholar who says that if Beowulf is modeled on Christ (by the poet who wrote the poem we have) then it would be to show the imperfection of Beowulf. He died fighting the dragon, but his death didn't save mankind; while Christ's death did.

Tolkien views the battle with the dragon differently.... as a critique on pelagianism. That the battle with the dragon is Beowulf's battle with his struggles with malice.... a battle he cannot win without divine grace, therefore, he loses.


"None saying anything that it's a direct allegory like Aslan to Christ."

Lewis said it isn't such.

I've posted on this before.

I trust Lewis.

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 Post subject: Re: Beowulf - Translation by Chickering
PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 3:18 pm 
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GKC wrote:
p.falk wrote:
Highlander wrote:
If Greenie is saying what I think he is, then I would offer that seeing Beowulf as any sort of Christian or Biblical allegory is a mistake and wrong.

Until this moment, I don't think I knew what "reading into" actually meant.



In Chickering's commentary he is referencing multiple scholars (Tolkien, Kaske, Margaret Goldsmith, and others) who are finding references and nods to Christianity.
None saying anything that it's a direct allegory like Aslan to Christ.

Chickering says, "The point of these equations is not to reduce three stories to one allegorical abstract, but to show that, for the themes of creation and destruction, the Beowulf poet would have found a basic story structure in both pagan and Christian myth."

If anything maybe typology... Chickering notes one scholar who says that if Beowulf is modeled on Christ (by the poet who wrote the poem we have) then it would be to show the imperfection of Beowulf. He died fighting the dragon, but his death didn't save mankind; while Christ's death did.

Tolkien views the battle with the dragon differently.... as a critique on pelagianism. That the battle with the dragon is Beowulf's battle with his struggles with malice.... a battle he cannot win without divine grace, therefore, he loses.


"None saying anything that it's a direct allegory like Aslan to Christ."

Lewis said it isn't such.

I've posted on this before.

I trust Lewis.


I would trust him too.... I didn't know he said that.
Do you have a link to your post on the topic?

Thanks GKC.

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 Post subject: Re: Beowulf - Translation by Chickering
PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 3:41 pm 
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p.falk wrote:
GKC wrote:
p.falk wrote:
Highlander wrote:
If Greenie is saying what I think he is, then I would offer that seeing Beowulf as any sort of Christian or Biblical allegory is a mistake and wrong.

Until this moment, I don't think I knew what "reading into" actually meant.



In Chickering's commentary he is referencing multiple scholars (Tolkien, Kaske, Margaret Goldsmith, and others) who are finding references and nods to Christianity.
None saying anything that it's a direct allegory like Aslan to Christ.

Chickering says, "The point of these equations is not to reduce three stories to one allegorical abstract, but to show that, for the themes of creation and destruction, the Beowulf poet would have found a basic story structure in both pagan and Christian myth."

If anything maybe typology... Chickering notes one scholar who says that if Beowulf is modeled on Christ (by the poet who wrote the poem we have) then it would be to show the imperfection of Beowulf. He died fighting the dragon, but his death didn't save mankind; while Christ's death did.

Tolkien views the battle with the dragon differently.... as a critique on pelagianism. That the battle with the dragon is Beowulf's battle with his struggles with malice.... a battle he cannot win without divine grace, therefore, he loses.


"None saying anything that it's a direct allegory like Aslan to Christ."

Lewis said it isn't such.

I've posted on this before.

I trust Lewis.


I would trust him too.... I didn't know he said that.
Do you have a link to your post on the topic?

Thanks GKC.


It's in the thread on THE MAN WHO WAS THURSDAY, over 2 years ago. I thought I had posted the salient C/P in this thread.



https://forums.avemariaradio.net/viewto ... 5&start=40

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 Post subject: Re: Beowulf - Translation by Chickering
PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:14 pm 
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Wow. All the stuff in that thread by some character called 'gherkin' is really good! I agree with him. :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: Beowulf - Translation by Chickering
PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:40 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
Wow. All the stuff in that thread by some character called 'gherkin' is really good! I agree with him. :fyi:


I don't know anyone who collects gherkin.

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 Post subject: Re: Beowulf - Translation by Chickering
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:17 pm 
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Funny part in the story...
so the coast-guard sees the Beowulf and the Geats coming ashore.
He rushes down to them and inquires who are they who so brazenly and casually take their weapons off their ship without leave from any of the Danes.

He's clearly impressed and possibly intimidated by the size of Beowulf. As this coast-guard talks his speech even seems nervous.

So, he leads the Geats (who he still really doesn't know and just takes it on their word that they're good guys) to Heorot. But as soon as he gets to the hall (where Grendal has been acting ill-behaved) he immediately:
"wheeled his horse back through the troop (of Geats)" saying:

Quote:
"It is time I returned; the Father all-powerful in His mercy keep you safe through all your ventures. I am off to the sea to keep the watch for enemy marauders."


Yeah, you did a real bang up job with these potential marauders... I'm sure the coastline will be in great hands.

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 Post subject: Re: Beowulf - Translation by Chickering
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:37 pm 
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GKC wrote:
gherkin wrote:
Wow. All the stuff in that thread by some character called 'gherkin' is really good! I agree with him. :fyi:


I don't know anyone who collects gherkin.

We don't store well.

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 Post subject: Re: Beowulf - Translation by Chickering
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2020 3:15 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
GKC wrote:
gherkin wrote:
Wow. All the stuff in that thread by some character called 'gherkin' is really good! I agree with him. :fyi:


I don't know anyone who collects gherkin.

We don't store well.


Brine the preferred medium?

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And the sea rises higher."


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