Does a week go by? Pope Francis confusion

kage_ar · **Posted:** Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:15 am

Peregrinator wrote:

kage_ar wrote:

Part of my job is to stay informed and to brief my boss on things so when a despairing parishioner comes to him clutching pearls or printouts from various blogs, he knows what happened/was said and is able to put it in a perspective for that parishioner. He has a weekly public Q and A on Sundays, I make sure that he is not blindsided with some "news" item during that hour.

What happens when it can't be put into perspective

That situation has yet to occur. I'll likely come here asking for assistance if it does!!

Peregrinator · **Posted:** Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:56 pm

Doom wrote:

At any rate, I would say it is a very rare child who
a. Has such a deep understanding of the faith to be able to notice when a statement is ambiguous enough to cast doubt on it
b. Who so closely follows the Pope and his words that he would be able to ask intelligent questions about it

I don't think it's rare at all (I'm not talking about young children, to be clear). Of course I'm not talking about merely ambiguous statements.

Peregrinator · **Posted:** Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:58 pm

Peetem wrote:

Peregrinator wrote:

So what happens when my kids come to me wondering why the Pope is saying things that don't align with what they've taught? Just tell them to ignore him?

Yes.

I mean this quite seriously, but you really don’t know how to handle this problem?

You think that's a normal thing for a Catholic to have to say to those in his charge? "Ignore the Pope"? "Ignore the men whom Christ has placed in authority over you"?

FTR I've already had the "Pope Francis is a bad Pope" talk with my older children.

Peregrinator · **Posted:** Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:59 pm

kage_ar wrote:

That situation has yet to occur. I'll likely come here asking for assistance if it does!!

Really? No one wanted to know about Pope Francis contradicting the teaching of the Church on the death penalty? I would have thought that was a big one.

kage_ar · **Posted:** Mon Feb 06, 2023 2:24 pm

Peregrinator wrote:

kage_ar wrote:

That situation has yet to occur. I'll likely come here asking for assistance if it does!!

Really? No one wanted to know about Pope Francis contradicting the teaching of the Church on the death penalty? I would have thought that was a big one.

In 2018 we had a different pastor who had his own way of doing things (may he rest in peace). For instance, he did not do a weekly Q and A session with our parishioners to discuss current events the way our current pastor does.

Peetem · **Posted:** Mon Feb 06, 2023 5:17 pm

Peregrinator wrote:

Peetem wrote:

Peregrinator wrote:

So what happens when my kids come to me wondering why the Pope is saying things that don't align with what they've taught? Just tell them to ignore him?

Yes.

I mean this quite seriously, but you really don’t know how to handle this problem?

You think that's a normal thing for a Catholic to have to say to those in his charge? "Ignore the Pope"? "Ignore the men whom Christ has placed in authority over you"?

FTR I've already had the "Pope Francis is a bad Pope" talk with my older children.

In as much as the Pope isn't saying things that are binding on the faithful but mere opinion, then "yes", ignore the Pope.

Obviously I wouldn't put it that way and I suspect most parents wouldn't either.

I don't find this difficult to explain. What am I missing?

Peregrinator · **Posted:** Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:08 am

Peetem wrote:

In as much as the Pope isn't saying things that are binding on the faithful but mere opinion, then "yes", ignore the Pope.

Is it always clear when the Pope is giving his own opinion as opposed to binding on the faithful?

Does it sound like the Pope is giving his own opinion on the abolition of the death penalty?

Does it sound like the Pope is giving his own opinion on whether the Bugnini/Montini missal is the unique expression of the lex orandi of the Roman Rite?

gherkin · **Posted:** Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:15 am

Peregrinator wrote:

You think that's a normal thing for a Catholic to have to say to those in his charge? "Ignore the Pope"? "Ignore the men whom Christ has placed in authority over you"?

I don't think the former translates into the latter. For one thing, "in authority" can be divided into at least two distinct meanings.
First, teaching authority. And in this area, in fact, it is precisely because we can't ignore those whom Christ has placed in authority over us that we must often ignore this Pope, since he so often contradicts the authority of the Church as expressed for centuries by those in authority over us.

Second, disciplinary authority. And here, the Pope has virtually nothing to say to any of us outside of his own diocese. The child must be taught deference to his confessor, and respect for his pastor, and such. But the Pope generally doesn't enter into things, not as far as I can see.

Peetem · **Posted:** Tue Feb 07, 2023 3:44 pm

Peregrinator wrote:

Peetem wrote:

In as much as the Pope isn't saying things that are binding on the faithful but mere opinion, then "yes", ignore the Pope.

Is it always clear when the Pope is giving his own opinion as opposed to binding on the faithful?

Of course not. That's what a parent's job is - to help guide kids through murky waters.

It is perfectly acceptable to say "The pope isn't clear on XYZ and as your parent, I'm not sure myself. I know what the Church has taught, he's not perfect and makes mistakes just like all of is. He's only infallible when certain conditions apply anyway. So let's do the best with what we can and wait for clarity. Until then, don't worry about XYZ."

or whatever charitable way you would put it to a child.

Doom · **Posted:** Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:49 pm

Peregrinator wrote:

Peetem wrote:

In as much as the Pope isn't saying things that are binding on the faithful but mere opinion, then "yes", ignore the Pope.

Is it always clear when the Pope is giving his own opinion as opposed to binding on the faithful?

If it isn't then the doctrine of Papal Infallibility is not only less than useless, it is a sick joke. Either that or I guess we all have to become Ultramontanists.

Peregrinator · **Posted:** Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:15 am

Peetem wrote:

Peregrinator wrote:

Peetem wrote:

In as much as the Pope isn't saying things that are binding on the faithful but mere opinion, then "yes", ignore the Pope.

Is it always clear when the Pope is giving his own opinion as opposed to binding on the faithful?

Of course not. That's what a parent's job is - to help guide kids through murky waters.

It is perfectly acceptable to say "The pope isn't clear on XYZ and as your parent, I'm not sure myself. I know what the Church has taught, he's not perfect and makes mistakes just like all of is. He's only infallible when certain conditions apply anyway. So let's do the best with what we can and wait for clarity. Until then, don't worry about XYZ."

or whatever charitable way you would put it to a child.

And you can't do that if you're ignoring the Pope

Peregrinator · **Posted:** Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:16 am

gherkin wrote:

Second, disciplinary authority. And here, the Pope has virtually nothing to say to any of us outside of his own diocese.

Surely that is not the teaching of the Church on the Pope's authority.

Peetem · **Posted:** Wed Feb 08, 2023 10:01 am

Peregrinator wrote:

Peetem wrote:

Peregrinator wrote:

Peetem wrote:

In as much as the Pope isn't saying things that are binding on the faithful but mere opinion, then "yes", ignore the Pope.

Is it always clear when the Pope is giving his own opinion as opposed to binding on the faithful?

Of course not. That's what a parent's job is - to help guide kids through murky waters.

It is perfectly acceptable to say "The pope isn't clear on XYZ and as your parent, I'm not sure myself. I know what the Church has taught, he's not perfect and makes mistakes just like all of is. He's only infallible when certain conditions apply anyway. So let's do the best with what we can and wait for clarity. Until then, don't worry about XYZ."

or whatever charitable way you would put it to a child.

And you can't do that if you're ignoring the Pope

OK. You win. I'm wrong.

I'll start listening to his every word and make sure my family does as well. Then, I'll be sure to get wound up and frustrated at all the confusion he creates.

Can't imagine all that I've been missing by ignoring him.

Peregrinator · **Posted:** Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:44 pm

Peetem wrote:

OK. You win. I'm wrong.

I'll start listening to his every word and make sure my family does as well.

Come on now, no one said that you or your family needs to listen to every word out of the Pope's mouth - a very difficult task for anyone to do, especially But I do think someone in authority needs to keep abreast of what he is saying in case questions come up (and they will!). In a parish that's the pastor and any associates. In a family that's the father and mother.

gherkin · **Posted:** Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:59 pm

Peregrinator wrote:

gherkin wrote:

Second, disciplinary authority. And here, the Pope has virtually nothing to say to any of us outside of his own diocese.

Surely that is not the teaching of the Church on the Pope's authority.

Not the full extent of it, of course, but in practical terms yes, that about sums it up, at the level of his disciplinary reach into my private life and yours as fathers of families.

gherkin · **Posted:** Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:01 pm

Peregrinator wrote:

Come on now, no one said that you or your family needs to listen to every word out of the Pope's mouth - a very difficult task for anyone to do, especially But I do think someone in authority needs to keep abreast of what he is saying in case questions come up (and they will!). In a parish that's the pastor and any associates. In a family that's the father and mother.

I really think this is clearly false. Imagine one of my kids comes to me with some perplexity over something idiotic just said by, oh, I dunno, some important figure or other. I do not need to have been aware of it ahead of time to help with this perplexity. Easiest thing in the world to say "hadn't heard that, let's look into it."

Different, no doubt, for a priest than for the father of the family.

Peetem · **Posted:** Tue Feb 14, 2023 7:18 am

Peregrinator wrote:

Come on now, no one said that you or your family needs to listen to every word out of the Pope's mouth - a very difficult task for anyone to do....

I was being hyperbolic.

Pro-Zak · **Posted:** Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:56 pm

Doom wrote:

Pro-Zak wrote:

My point was if God called for the death of homosexual offenders, how would that be inhumane today?

Okay, fair.

Neither Christians nor Jews have ever interpreted the penalties in the Mosaic law strictly literally, any more than judges in the United States take the sentences attached to various offenses in the American penal code strictly literally. The law might command a life sentence after 3 felonies (the "3 Strikes" law) but if those 3 felonies are for non-violent offenses, say shoplifting, no judge on the bench in this country is going to actually give a life sentence, particularly if the defendant is young, say 20 years old.

If you study ancient law codes, you will see this in action, the legendary "Code of Draco" from ancient Athens prescribed the death penalty for relatively trivial offenses, this is the origin of the word "Draconian" meaning "unreasonably severe", according to ancient legend, Draco defended his law code by saying "I think small offenses deserve death, and I can't give a more severe penalty for a more serious crime." A funny line, but he almost certainly never said it. And yet, based on what we know about ancient Athens, and we know quite a bit, it seems that the death penalty was rarely ever given, and certainly not for the kind of trivial offenses that the law supposedly required. The execution of Socrates by being forced to drink Hemlock is notable precisely because it was contrary to the normally lenient nature of Athenian justice.

There is actually a word to describe this kind of law code, where penalties are attached to offenses in theory but judges were generally lenient in practice. I wish I could remember it....but this kind of flexibility, harsh in principle, and lenient is practice, is common with ancient law codes.

And again there is no Biblical or post-Biblical evidence that in ancient Israel that the death penalty was ever used for any crime other than pre-meditated murder.

Ok, fair.

What about laws prohibiting sodomy, should we advocate for their renewal?

Vern Humphrey · **Posted:** Fri Feb 17, 2023 5:37 pm

Pro-Zak wrote:

Doom wrote:

Pro-Zak wrote:

My point was if God called for the death of homosexual offenders, how would that be inhumane today?

Okay, fair.

Neither Christians nor Jews have ever interpreted the penalties in the Mosaic law strictly literally, any more than judges in the United States take the sentences attached to various offenses in the American penal code strictly literally. The law might command a life sentence after 3 felonies (the "3 Strikes" law) but if those 3 felonies are for non-violent offenses, say shoplifting, no judge on the bench in this country is going to actually give a life sentence, particularly if the defendant is young, say 20 years old.

If you study ancient law codes, you will see this in action, the legendary "Code of Draco" from ancient Athens prescribed the death penalty for relatively trivial offenses, this is the origin of the word "Draconian" meaning "unreasonably severe", according to ancient legend, Draco defended his law code by saying "I think small offenses deserve death, and I can't give a more severe penalty for a more serious crime." A funny line, but he almost certainly never said it. And yet, based on what we know about ancient Athens, and we know quite a bit, it seems that the death penalty was rarely ever given, and certainly not for the kind of trivial offenses that the law supposedly required. The execution of Socrates by being forced to drink Hemlock is notable precisely because it was contrary to the normally lenient nature of Athenian justice.

There is actually a word to describe this kind of law code, where penalties are attached to offenses in theory but judges were generally lenient in practice. I wish I could remember it....but this kind of flexibility, harsh in principle, and lenient is practice, is common with ancient law codes.

And again there is no Biblical or post-Biblical evidence that in ancient Israel that the death penalty was ever used for any crime other than pre-meditated murder.

Ok, fair.

What about laws prohibiting sodomy, should we advocate for their renewal?

The courts have struck down all laws prohibiting sodomy between consenting adults.

Now how about laws prohibiting dueling -- that takes place in private between consenting adults.

Does a week go by? Pope Francis confusion

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