Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 2 of 3   [ 46 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Cardinal Cupich Contradiction
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:45 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:05 pm
Posts: 450
Religion: Catholic
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I'm saying that you can read all the sacramental theology books you want, and none will mention the priest's breath as a necessary part of the rite.


Lets take a moment and seperate rubrics, which you correctly state are not found there but is assumed, from the deep theological understanding of the inseparable nature of speaking words and taking a breath to do it.

The Breath (the Holy Spirit) and Christ (the Word) are inseperable. The Catechism seems to disagree with the assertion that the breath is not a "necesary part of the rite", to bring about the Word.

CCC #689 states

"When the Father sends His Word He always sends His Breath. In their joint mission the Son (the Word) and the Holy Spirit (the breath) are distinct but inseparable. To be sure it is Christ who is seen the visible image of the invisible God, but it is the Spirit who reveals Him."

The words contained in parenthesis I added.

You cannot say the words without a breath they are inseparable.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cardinal Cupich Contradiction
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:40 am 
Offline
Prodigal Son of Thunder
Prodigal Son of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 10:54 am
Posts: 40545
Location: Ithilien
Religion: Dunedain Catholic
Church Affiliations: AWC, CSB, UIGSE-FSE (FNE)
Stargazer wrote:
Why would Christ wear a mask?

I never said He would :scratch:

_________________
Formerly Bagheera

"Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the King." (1 Peter 2:17)
Federation of North-American Explorers - North Star Group - How You Can Help


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cardinal Cupich Contradiction
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:41 am 
Offline
Prodigal Son of Thunder
Prodigal Son of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 10:54 am
Posts: 40545
Location: Ithilien
Religion: Dunedain Catholic
Church Affiliations: AWC, CSB, UIGSE-FSE (FNE)
Stargazer wrote:
You cannot say the words without a breath they are inseparable.

If the priest must breathe on the host to consecrate it what of the other hosts on the corporal that are also covered by his intention to consecrate? Are they not consecrated?

_________________
Formerly Bagheera

"Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the King." (1 Peter 2:17)
Federation of North-American Explorers - North Star Group - How You Can Help


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cardinal Cupich Contradiction
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:44 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:05 pm
Posts: 450
Religion: Catholic
Peregrinator wrote:
Stargazer wrote:
Why would Christ wear a mask?

I never said He would :scratch:


You said, "Of course he can" in reference to a priest saying Mass with a mask on.
The priest functions in Persona Christi while saying Mass, Christ wearing a mask.

So I ll ask you again why would Christ were a mask?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cardinal Cupich Contradiction
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:58 pm 
Offline
Prodigal Son of Thunder
Prodigal Son of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 10:54 am
Posts: 40545
Location: Ithilien
Religion: Dunedain Catholic
Church Affiliations: AWC, CSB, UIGSE-FSE (FNE)
Stargazer wrote:
You said, "Of course he can" in reference to a priest saying Mass with a mask on.
The priest functions in Persona Christi while saying Mass, Christ wearing a mask.

So I ll ask you again why would Christ were a mask?

I'm sorry are you trolling or is this (an attempt at) a serious objection?

_________________
Formerly Bagheera

"Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the King." (1 Peter 2:17)
Federation of North-American Explorers - North Star Group - How You Can Help


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cardinal Cupich Contradiction
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:59 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 83070
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
Stargazer, you're making up theology. Where the Church has not spoken, you are free to hypothesize (bearing in mind that others are free to disagree). But the requirements for valid consecration have been discussed and debated for centuries, and the result is that it is quite clear that the breath is not required.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cardinal Cupich Contradiction
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 1:52 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:05 pm
Posts: 450
Religion: Catholic
Peregrinator wrote:
Stargazer wrote:
You cannot say the words without a breath they are inseparable.

If the priest must breathe on the host to consecrate it what of the other hosts on the corporal that are also covered by his intention to consecrate? Are they not consecrated?

Who said anything about blowing air on the hosts? The breath is symbolic of the Holy Spirit and is inseperable but distinct from the Word as is stated in the catechism, so by wearing a mask the breath is being blocked and again I am not saying there is a rubric for blowing air on the elements of the bread and wine like is done when the bishop blesses chrism at a Chrism Mass per se. But we havn't faced this before where the priest in persona Christi is wearing a mask.
If Christ were to stand at the altar in your church tomorrow would He be wearing a mask?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cardinal Cupich Contradiction
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:20 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:05 pm
Posts: 450
Religion: Catholic
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Stargazer, you're making up theology. Where the Church has not spoken, you are free to hypothesize (bearing in mind that others are free to disagree). But the requirements for valid consecration have been discussed and debated for centuries, and the result is that it is quite clear that the breath is not required.

Father you cannot speak (the Word) without breathing (the Holy Spirit). You must breath to speak they are inseparable.

I think maybe you are in the same boat as Peregrinator, I am not claiming that there is a rubric requiring a priest to blow on the elements. I am restating what the Catechism says in #689 "When the Father sends His Word He always sends His breath". They are inseparable according to the Churches teaching.

We have not faced this issue before of priests wearing a mask while saying Mass.

So my question still remains would Christ wear a mask while standing at the altar?

Does Christ fear? He would either be protecting us from Himself? or protecting Himself from us? So why would a priest who stands in Persona Christi wear a mask?
This is not an assertion of theology, this a question that requires a theological answer that we have never received from any priest or bishop, although the answer seems obvious.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cardinal Cupich Contradiction
PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:04 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 83070
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
I am not talking about rubrics. I am talking about sacramental theology. Show me a theology text from any era that says the breath is necessary. Without that, you’re just making stuff up.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cardinal Cupich Contradiction
PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:34 pm 
Offline
Prodigal Son of Thunder
Prodigal Son of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 10:54 am
Posts: 40545
Location: Ithilien
Religion: Dunedain Catholic
Church Affiliations: AWC, CSB, UIGSE-FSE (FNE)
Stargazer wrote:
Who said anything about blowing air on the hosts? The breath is symbolic of the Holy Spirit and is inseperable but distinct from the Word as is stated in the catechism, so by wearing a mask the breath is being blocked

Blocked from what? Since you say it doesn't have to be on the hosts themselves, what exactly is the breath being blocked from?

Quote:
If Christ were to stand at the altar in your church tomorrow would He be wearing a mask?

Would He be wearing a cassock? An alb? A maniple? Etc.

Would Christ wash His hands before distributing Holy Communion?

_________________
Formerly Bagheera

"Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the King." (1 Peter 2:17)
Federation of North-American Explorers - North Star Group - How You Can Help


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cardinal Cupich Contradiction
PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:36 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:05 pm
Posts: 450
Religion: Catholic
Peregrinator wrote:
Stargazer wrote:
Who said anything about blowing air on the hosts? The breath is symbolic of the Holy Spirit and is inseperable but distinct from the Word as is stated in the catechism, so by wearing a mask the breath is being blocked

Blocked from what? Since you say it doesn't have to be on the hosts themselves, what exactly is the breath being blocked from?

Quote:
If Christ were to stand at the altar in your church tomorrow would He be wearing a mask?

Would He be wearing a cassock? An alb? A maniple? Etc.

Would Christ wash His hands before distributing Holy Communion?


Christ is a priest forever, your priest is functioning in Persona Christi dont you believe that?

Dont you see your priest wash his hands? That is Christ washing His hands
Dont you see your priest in these priestly vestments? That is Christ in those vestments.

A mask is also not part of priestly vesture.

Christ went to His death in priestly vesture remember they cast lots for it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cardinal Cupich Contradiction
PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:47 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:05 pm
Posts: 450
Religion: Catholic
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I am not talking about rubrics. I am talking about sacramental theology. Show me a theology text from any era that says the breath is necessary. Without that, you’re just making stuff up.


I just did, CCC #689 but you have failed to comment on that, "The Word and the Breath are inseparable but distinct", do you disagree with that Church teaching?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cardinal Cupich Contradiction
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:47 am 
Offline
Prodigal Son of Thunder
Prodigal Son of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 10:54 am
Posts: 40545
Location: Ithilien
Religion: Dunedain Catholic
Church Affiliations: AWC, CSB, UIGSE-FSE (FNE)
Stargazer wrote:
Christ is a priest forever, your priest is functioning in Persona Christi dont you believe that?

Dont you see your priest wash his hands? That is Christ washing His hands
Dont you see your priest in these priestly vestments? That is Christ in those vestments.

A mask is also not part of priestly vesture.

Christ went to His death in priestly vesture remember they cast lots for it.

You're just begging the question.

_________________
Formerly Bagheera

"Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the King." (1 Peter 2:17)
Federation of North-American Explorers - North Star Group - How You Can Help


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cardinal Cupich Contradiction
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:04 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:05 pm
Posts: 450
Religion: Catholic
Peregrinator wrote:
Stargazer wrote:
Christ is a priest forever, your priest is functioning in Persona Christi dont you believe that?

Don't you see your priest wash his hands? That is Christ washing His hands
Don't you see your priest in these priestly vestments? That is Christ in those vestments.

A mask is also not part of priestly vesture.

Christ went to His death in priestly vesture remember they cast lots for it.

You're just begging the question.


Go ahead fire away.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cardinal Cupich Contradiction
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:11 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 83070
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Show me a theology text from any era that says the breath is necessary. Without that, you’re just making stuff up.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cardinal Cupich Contradiction
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:14 am 
Offline
Criminally Insane Cucumber
Criminally Insane Cucumber
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:20 pm
Posts: 34105
Location: The countertop
Religion: The True One
Church Affiliations: OblSB
Didn't we see that priest in a mask? That is Christ in that mask.

_________________
Suscipe me secundum eloquium tuum, et vivam: et non confundas me ab exspectatione mea.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cardinal Cupich Contradiction
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:56 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:05 pm
Posts: 450
Religion: Catholic
gherkin wrote:
Didn't we see that priest in a mask? That is Christ in that mask.


I don't recognize Christ in a mask. Cowards wear masks so they may not be identified.

A mask is not priestly vesture.

Priests have said and done some pretty non Catholics things from the altar which they will answer for and Im afraid this is one of those things.

Look up Superbowl Mass or Clown Mass. Novus Ordo inovation at its finest.

I dont recognize Christ in a clown suit or a Seahawks Jersey.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cardinal Cupich Contradiction
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:54 pm 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman

Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:04 pm
Posts: 681
Location: Arkansas Ozarks
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th KofC
Stargazer wrote:
gherkin wrote:
Didn't we see that priest in a mask? That is Christ in that mask.


I don't recognize Christ in a mask. Cowards wear masks so they may not be identified.

A mask is not priestly vesture.

Priests have said and done some pretty non Catholics things from the altar which they will answer for and Im afraid this is one of those things.

Look up Superbowl Mass or Clown Mass. Novus Ordo inovation at its finest.

I dont recognize Christ in a clown suit or a Seahawks Jersey.

The two things are not comparable -- a protective mask or other item of PPE is not the same as wearing a clown suit or a Seahawks Jersey. The PPE is worn for valid medical reasons, to protect the congregation. Clown suits and football jerseys were worn to mock the Mass.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cardinal Cupich Contradiction
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:39 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:05 pm
Posts: 450
Religion: Catholic
Vern Humphrey wrote:
Stargazer wrote:
gherkin wrote:
Didn't we see that priest in a mask? That is Christ in that mask.


I don't recognize Christ in a mask. Cowards wear masks so they may not be identified.

A mask is not priestly vesture.

Priests have said and done some pretty non Catholics things from the altar which they will answer for and Im afraid this is one of those things.

Look up Superbowl Mass or Clown Mass. Novus Ordo inovation at its finest.

I dont recognize Christ in a clown suit or a Seahawks Jersey.

The two things are not comparable -- a protective mask or other item of PPE is not the same as wearing a clown suit or a Seahawks Jersey. The PPE is worn for valid medical reasons, to protect the congregation. Clown suits and football jerseys were worn to mock the Mass.


Its still a mockery. When human reason supplants faith we arrive back at the same location.

Look at what human reason has done; the priest next puts on rubber gloves to distribute communion, what is done with the rubber gloves? He has now declared the Body of Christ unclean, and himself in Persona Christi unclean, by human reason. Ive seen priests drop Communion in a zip lock bag to be carried home to those who cannnot attend Mass, human reason. It goes on and on and on...
Dont kiss the wood of the cross it may kill you, human reason. Dont bless yourself with Holy Water it may kill you, human reason. Is hand sanitizer more powerful than Holy Water? I know what your human reason will say. Every sermon your whole life about faith, then the first bump in the road and we abandon faith and take on human reason. Confession cancelled, human reason. Churches closed, human reason. What happened to the healing properties of faith, the Palatines pray after communion" Jesus in the Eucharist my physician and medicine."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Cardinal Cupich Contradiction
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:11 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 83070
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
You don't like Cardinal Cupich. That's your privilege. Making up theology to support it is not.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 2 of 3   [ 46 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests


Jump to: