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 Post subject: The Divinity of Jesus
PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2022 8:01 pm 
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This was part of another Cath 101 thread that the author has requested be deleted. In reviewing the original thread, I came across this dialogue (unrelated to the original topic) that I believe to be well worth leaving in Cath 101. Therefore, I have split this question into its own separate thread for discussion.
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StephenAndrewMaher wrote:
“Tell My priests that hardened sinners will repent on hearing their words when they speak about My unfathomable mercy, about the compassion I have for them in My Heart. To priests who proclaim and extol My mercy, I will give wondrous power; I will anoint their words and touch the hearts of those to whom they speak” (Diary, 1521).

Here is one of the promises of the Chaplet of Divine Mercy. We know the priests and catch their words. Every Sunday the Mass reflects on the fact that Jesus is God and has fulfilled the old laws with the new covenant which is Eternal life, redemption life of the flesh, reunited with the soul in Heaven. Continue to tell your brethren everywhere the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven are given to those, like Peter through his confession, who realized Jesus is God, and everything he taught on earth. Ra-affirm Christs' command when you were at the cross, where we became actual physical brothers and sisters of Christ and will share in the same eternal flesh in heaven with Him when Christ Jesus said to his mother, "Woman behold your son, and to the disciple, behold your mother." The unnamed disciple was you, he spoke to you by name before you were born. Disciple! Keep Mary into your heart, with the church as your home and continue to pass on the fact to everyone that believing in the divinity of Jesus and everything that he taught on earth SETS the heart in motion for something more than we can ever imagine. There is so much more. Heaven is real.

Peace always,
Stephen Andrew

Why is the divinity of Jesus so important? Isn't it more important to believe in Jesus' life, miracles, crucifixion, burial, resurrection, and ascension?


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 Post subject: Re: The Divinity of Jesus
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2022 9:03 am 
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 Post subject: Re: The Divinity of Jesus
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2022 6:15 pm 
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Arius preached Jesus was only a man-- albeit a very good one.

The flaw in that ideas is that if Jesus is God, He is unique. There is only one God. But if He is a man, there are many men and a greater man than He may come along.

And abut 600 years later, another man DID come along, proclaiming himself to be greater than Jesus -- Mohammed.

See all the trouble that caused? :verymad:


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 Post subject: Re: The Divinity of Jesus
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2022 7:18 pm 
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If Jesus were not God, then His Passion, Death, and Resurrection would have no saving value. Noble though they would be, they will still be only human acts.

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 Post subject: Re: The Divinity of Jesus
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2022 7:35 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
If Jesus were not God, then His Passion, Death, and Resurrection would have no saving value. Noble though they would be, they will still be only human acts.

If Jesus was God, then His Passion, Death, and Resurrection would have no saving value. That's because we know that God cannot be tempted and cannot sin. IF Jesus WAS God - that means he's a fraud as he could NOT have been tempted to sin anyway. Trinity makes Jesus a fraud and the cross a total hoax.

The only answer Trinitarians have to all these contradictions is TWO NATURES which is a man-made concept contrived by the bishops in AD451. Jesus was 100% man. Hebrews 2:17...

"For this reason he had to be made like them,[k] fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people".

Either the man-made religion of Trinitarian Christianity is a total contradiction or Trinity is simply false.


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 Post subject: Re: The Divinity of Jesus
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2022 12:18 pm 
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Muckah wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
If Jesus were not God, then His Passion, Death, and Resurrection would have no saving value. Noble though they would be, they will still be only human acts.

If Jesus was God, then His Passion, Death, and Resurrection would have no saving value. That's because we know that God cannot be tempted and cannot sin. IF Jesus WAS God - that means he's a fraud as he could NOT have been tempted to sin anyway. Trinity makes Jesus a fraud and the cross a total hoax.

The only answer Trinitarians have to all these contradictions is TWO NATURES which is a man-made concept contrived by the bishops in AD451. Jesus was 100% man. Hebrews 2:17...

"For this reason he had to be made like them,[k] fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people".

Either the man-made religion of Trinitarian Christianity is a total contradiction or Trinity is simply false.

If Jesus was not God, he was not unique. If he were wholly man, and not God, other men could do what he did, and be even greater prophets.

That's exactly what Mohammed claimed.

Now your use of Hebrews 2:17 is an example of Garage Sale Theology -- pretending the Bible is newly discovered (perhaps purchased at a garage sale) and the discoverer can use it to "prove" all sorts of nonsense.


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 Post subject: Re: The Divinity of Jesus
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:02 pm 
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Since what I had thought was a simple question has now become a debate, which is not permitted in Cath 101. I have therefore moved this thread to The Lyceum for further discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: The Divinity of Jesus
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:18 pm 
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Muckah wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
If Jesus were not God, then His Passion, Death, and Resurrection would have no saving value. Noble though they would be, they will still be only human acts.

If Jesus was God, then His Passion, Death, and Resurrection would have no saving value. That's because we know that God cannot be tempted and cannot sin. IF Jesus WAS God - that means he's a fraud as he could NOT have been tempted to sin anyway. Trinity makes Jesus a fraud and the cross a total hoax.

The only answer Trinitarians have to all these contradictions is TWO NATURES which is a man-made concept contrived by the bishops in AD451. Jesus was 100% man. Hebrews 2:17...

"For this reason he had to be made like them,[k] fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people".

Either the man-made religion of Trinitarian Christianity is a total contradiction or Trinity is simply false.


Jesus died in our place because we could never atone for original sin. “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

Jesus did not have two natures. He has a divine nature, and He took on our human nature, and so He assumed a human nature. (cf. ccc 453 - 486)

Heb. 12:1 says He has a human nature, but it doesn't say He doesn't have a divine nature. He states His divinity in several places in the Gospel of John. Jn. 5:18 and 8:58, just to name a few.

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 Post subject: Re: The Divinity of Jesus
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2022 2:06 pm 
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Quote:
If Jesus was God, then His Passion, Death, and Resurrection would have no saving value. That's because we know that God cannot be tempted and cannot sin.
Your conclusion does not follow from your premise.

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 Post subject: Re: The Divinity of Jesus
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2022 4:05 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Quote:
If Jesus was God, then His Passion, Death, and Resurrection would have no saving value. That's because we know that God cannot be tempted and cannot sin.
Your conclusion does not follow from your premise.

And it ignores Biblical evidence:

Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

This whole argument is really a naive version of Arianism, which was debated, refuted and anathemized at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD.


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 Post subject: Re: The Divinity of Jesus
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2022 8:52 pm 
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That's Arianism, Patrick!

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 Post subject: Re: The Divinity of Jesus
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:31 am 
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Vern Humphrey wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Quote:
If Jesus was God, then His Passion, Death, and Resurrection would have no saving value. That's because we know that God cannot be tempted and cannot sin.
Your conclusion does not follow from your premise.

And it ignores Biblical evidence:

Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

This whole argument is really a naive version of Arianism, which was debated, refuted and anathemized at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD.

It's far naiver to believe that Mathew 3:17 implies Jesus is God and part of a co-equal trinity. In a Trinitarian context - God is pleased with Himself.


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 Post subject: Re: The Divinity of Jesus
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:42 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Quote:
If Jesus was God, then His Passion, Death, and Resurrection would have no saving value. That's because we know that God cannot be tempted and cannot sin.
Your conclusion does not follow from your premise.

It doesn't? Is it too simple to understand? Or too difficult for Trinity to make any sense of it all? Let me break it down.

God cannot be tempted to sin.
"Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. (James 1:13)"

However, according to Luke 4, Matthew 4, and Hebrews 4:15, Jesus was tempted by evil. If Jesus was God, then he - as God - could not have been tempted to sin! Therefore, Jesus was NOT God! The TWO NATURES is the ONLY trinitarian answer to ALL TRINITARIAN contradictions! Every contradiction in the trinity doctrine - dozens of them - all resort to the ultimate Trinitarian cop-out of a MYSTERY that Jesus has two natures. There are more contradictions in the Christian Trinity than in the Hindu trinity!


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 Post subject: Re: The Divinity of Jesus
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2022 5:36 pm 
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Can a bully attempt to mock you, yet you adroitly respond with a pithy reply that exposes the bully for what he is? He tried to mock, but you did not succumb to it; on the contrary, you rose above it.

It's oversimplifying, I know, but just because Jesus is God (and I do believe that's so), does that mean that the devil (or anyone else, for that matter) can't try to tempt Him? Chapter 4 of St. Matthew's Gospel is clear that the devil tested Christ during His desert wanderings, but He did not succumb to it. In fact, in the NRSV, Mt. 4:3 refers to the devil as "the tempter." Christ was clearly subjected to the devil's attempts to tempt Him, but He did not submit to those attempts; therefore, Christ did not sin.

This may indeed be one of those circumstances in which English falls short as a language. It's easy to think that the desire to do something wrong (to whatever degree of wrongness is inherent in the act) is necessarily a component of temptation. Yet, the passage in Mt. 4:1-11 very clearly shows that Christ was able to be tempted (tested?) without committing sin. Is that a distinction limited only to the Godhead, or is it possible for man to attain - maybe only with the help of the Holy Spirit? I'll leave it to those wordsmiths more knowledgeable in theology than I to determine if my theory has any merit.

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 Post subject: Re: The Divinity of Jesus
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:33 pm 
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Muckah wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Quote:
If Jesus was God, then His Passion, Death, and Resurrection would have no saving value. That's because we know that God cannot be tempted and cannot sin.
Your conclusion does not follow from your premise.

It doesn't? Is it too simple to understand? Or too difficult for Trinity to make any sense of it all? Let me break it down.

God cannot be tempted to sin.



God cannot SUCCUMB to temptation. That doesn't mean the Tempter can't try.


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 Post subject: Re: The Divinity of Jesus
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:29 am 
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One of the temptations were:
Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: ‘He will command His angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’” Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’”

Jesus' responses don't reveal the internal struggle He had with these temptations, but we know that He did not sin and was obedient.


Last edited by StephenAndrewMaher on Sat Jan 07, 2023 3:50 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Divinity of Jesus
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:31 am 
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The point of the temptations was for Satan to try to figure out who Jesus was. Imagine a WWII spy movie where a spy goes behind enemy lines and is captured by the enemy, who proceed to interrogate him to find out what he is up to. This is what Satan was up to, he knew something was up, but he didn't know what, so he proceeded to 'interrogate' Jesus to find out who get was and what he was doing, but even after 40 days, he still knew nothing more than he did before. It was totally not about trying to get Jesus to sin, which is why some translations refer to his 'testing' rather than his temptation.

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 Post subject: Re: The Divinity of Jesus
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:12 am 
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So true, thanks for the response, King.

"The minds of demons are completely abandoned from the Divine wisdom, they at times form their opinions of things simply according to the natural conditions of the same. Nor are they ever deceived as to the natural properties of anything; but they can be misled with regard to supernatural matters; for example, on seeing a dead man, they may suppose that he will not rise again, or, on beholding Christ, they may judge him not to be God. (ST I:58:5)"

When the angels were first told by God of Gods' plan, that man will be placed in heaven above the angels, some of the angels dissagreed. Some failed to remember that as created beings they, the angels, are subject to the will of the creator.

Thus, to establish that Jesus was God, the devil needed to do a little testing.

Peace always,
Stephen


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 Post subject: Re: The Divinity of Jesus
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:52 am 
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Jesus died in our place because we could never atone for original sin. “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).


Last edited by StephenAndrewMaher on Sat Jan 07, 2023 3:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Divinity of Jesus
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 5:30 am 
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One of the temptations were:
Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: ‘He will command His angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’” Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’”

Jesus' responses don't reveal the internal struggle He had with these temptations, but we know that He did not sin and was obedient.


Last edited by StephenAndrewMaher on Sat Jan 07, 2023 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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