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 Post subject: Legit Catholic reform
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:09 pm 
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The Catholic community at the time of Vatican II needed and needs some reforms - sorry, not sorry; I'm not trying to change teachings on sex and marriage. Nobody can do that. Anyway, I'm not extremely conservative. Like Benedict XVI though much less learned, I believe the creed and am not an iconoclast, not one of those mid-century priests taught to hate their past, throwing it away for bourgeois liberalism.

I love the traditional Latin Mass and Orthodox services, wouldn't mind if the Novus Ordo went away, believe in bishops - I was Anglican to begin with, and believe the Eucharist is Christ's sacrifice and really his body and blood, so Anglicanism and other Protestant churches aren't an option, but:

Vatican reform. Clean up the Roman Curia; downsize it.

Keep belief in the communion of saints including their intercession, but some of the legends and devotions about them go too far; idolatry/superstition. For example, yes, God works through material things but you're not saved by wearing a square of brown cloth rather than learning about Jesus and trying to follow him and the gospel. It's not a sacrament. The rosary is only an okay prayer aid that works for some people. I believe in venerating Roman martyrs but St. Philomena is likely imaginary.

The faith is more than the Bible but teaching more of the Bible is a good thing. My knowledge of scripture is barely serviceable if that, and most Catholics' knowledge of it is abysmal.

Protestantism was an early step in the direction Western society is headed. Groups of people's fanciful ideas about the early Christians. Conservative Protestants are quaint liberals. The Protestants got much wrong, important things, but had a point.

Ecumenism: the English language has a Christian tradition; it's Anglican.

For goodness' sake stop latinizing the Eastern rites! Latinizing them means you don't really believe in them. Latin practices don't define being Catholic so stop acting like they do.

Bishops including Popes have their jobs but my faith is not Pope worship.

P.S. I have blocked out Bergoglio. I follow ViganĂ².

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 Post subject: Re: Legit Catholic reform
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:37 am 
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So...the problem is that too many people are praying the Rosary and wearing the scapular? :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch:

Those liturgical movement people used to say that having folks praying the rosary during the mass was a terrible thing. And then they reformed the liturgy and now nobody bothers going to mass or saying the rosary. Great work, reformers!

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 Post subject: Re: Legit Catholic reform
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:43 am 
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gherkin wrote:
So...the problem is that too many people are praying the Rosary and wearing the scapular? :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch:

Those liturgical movement people used to say that having folks praying the rosary during the mass was a terrible thing. And then they reformed the liturgy and now nobody bothers going to mass or saying the rosary. Great work, reformers!

Not getting rid of the rosary and the scapular but not exaggerating them and telling the truth about them, squaring them with the gospel.

The liturgical movement was right. Don't confuse it with the Novus Ordo.

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 Post subject: Re: Legit Catholic reform
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 10:30 am 
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Who, today, is "exaggerating" the Rosary? I mean, apart from the Blessed Mother in her apparitions at Fatima and such? Apart from her, I mean. Who?

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 Post subject: Re: Legit Catholic reform
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:33 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
Who, today, is "exaggerating" the Rosary? I mean, apart from the Blessed Mother in her apparitions at Fatima and such? Apart from her, I mean. Who?

I mean many people at the time of Vatican II and many well-meaning conservative Catholics now, trying to compensate for the deficiencies in the Novus Ordo so of course they seek the mystical. The answer is a balance, yes, a via media, neither Protestant dismissal nor superstitious excess. The Eucharist is numero uno with Bible reading including in the form of the offices/hours/breviary second.

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 Post subject: Re: Legit Catholic reform
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:48 pm 
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I'm just saying you haven't begun to establish that there is a superstitious excess widely connected to the praying of the Rosary or the wearing of the scapular. You're strawmanning.

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 Post subject: Re: Legit Catholic reform
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:02 pm 
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Again, God works through matter; why he made us, became man, and started the church with its sacraments. Even below that level there were his healings, and even the shadow of an apostle cured ailments. That said, there are no shortcuts in the Christian life. You can spin the rosary and the scapular to make them Christian. Doctrine can cover that. Marian devotion is a logical step from the Incarnation, all the saints are prayer partners like your church friends on earth, and there's a legend that Mary appeared wishing the Carmelite monks well. Fine. But in uncatechized popular piety, it's magic - meditate on the Bible stories in just the right order and the goddess will grant your favor, or a get-out-of-jail-free card. That's. Not. Christian.

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Last edited by The young fogey on Tue Aug 02, 2022 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Legit Catholic reform
PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:39 pm 
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Probably not super Christian to dump on popular piety, either. Just a thought.

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 Post subject: Re: Legit Catholic reform
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:42 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
Probably not super Christian to dump on popular piety, either. Just a thought.

It's not un-Christian and indeed it's sometimes a duty to criticize popular piety.

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 Post subject: Re: Legit Catholic reform
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:14 pm 
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I must admit I don't see why this particular bee has gotten into your bonnet.

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 Post subject: Re: Legit Catholic reform
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 3:19 pm 
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The young fogey wrote:
gherkin wrote:
Probably not super Christian to dump on popular piety, either. Just a thought.

It's not un-Christian and indeed it's sometimes a duty to criticize popular piety.


Self righteousness, moral superiority and taking a condescending attitude towards "the plebs" have not, to my knowledge, been heretofore regarded as Christian virtues

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 Post subject: Re: Legit Catholic reform
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:23 pm 
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The young fogey wrote:
gherkin wrote:
Probably not super Christian to dump on popular piety, either. Just a thought.

It's not un-Christian and indeed it's sometimes a duty to criticize popular piety.


Your posts are wordy and somewhat off the mark.

Some people may misunderstand the purpose of sacramentals, and many are helped on their spiritual path because of them.


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 Post subject: Re: Legit Catholic reform
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:54 am 
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The young fogey wrote:
But in uncatechized popular piety, it's magic - meditate on the Bible stories in just the right order and the goddess will grant your favor, or a get-out-of-jail-free card apart from Christ's sacrifice on the cross and at Mass. That's. Not. Christian.


Reform is necessary when an issue becomes a large enough problem. Where in the world is this a huge issue? For example, if you randomly selected 10 parishes in your diocese are you really going to find this as a major issue across most of them?

The young fogey wrote:
gherkin wrote:
So...the problem is that too many people are praying the Rosary and wearing the scapular? :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch:

Those liturgical movement people used to say that having folks praying the rosary during the mass was a terrible thing. And then they reformed the liturgy and now nobody bothers going to mass or saying the rosary. Great work, reformers!

Not getting rid of the rosary and the scapular but not exaggerating them and telling the truth about them, squaring them with the gospel.

The liturgical movement was right. Don't confuse it with the Novus Ordo.


Not entirely. Praying a few decades of the Rosary during the inaudible parts of the traditional Roman rite is perfectly fine, for example.

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 Post subject: Re: Legit Catholic reform
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:02 pm 
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Alexandros wrote:
The young fogey wrote:
But in uncatechized popular piety, it's magic - meditate on the Bible stories in just the right order and the goddess will grant your favor, or a get-out-of-jail-free card apart from Christ's sacrifice on the cross and at Mass. That's. Not. Christian.


Reform is necessary when an issue becomes a large enough problem. Where in the world is this a huge issue? For example, if you randomly selected 10 parishes in your diocese are you really going to find this as a major issue across most of them?

The young fogey wrote:
gherkin wrote:
So...the problem is that too many people are praying the Rosary and wearing the scapular? :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch:

Those liturgical movement people used to say that having folks praying the rosary during the mass was a terrible thing. And then they reformed the liturgy and now nobody bothers going to mass or saying the rosary. Great work, reformers!

Not getting rid of the rosary and the scapular but not exaggerating them and telling the truth about them, squaring them with the gospel.

The liturgical movement was right. Don't confuse it with the Novus Ordo.


Not entirely. Praying a few decades of the Rosary during the inaudible parts of the traditional Roman rite is perfectly fine, for example.

It is a problem that needs correction among well-meaning Catholics both in the Novus Ordo and in the traditionalist movement. People mistake nonessentials for essentials and don't use the nonessentials properly. Note that I'm not saying to throw away the nonessentials, just to fine-tune people's understanding of them.

The rosary during Mass? Sure you can! Many people don't remember that traditional laity have a lot of freedom. Traditional Catholic churches were very much strict decorum in the sanctuary but come as you are for the laity, as long as you're not a distraction or disruptive. That's what I believe in. You can quietly use your rosary. You can follow the Mass in a hand missal. You can walk from shrine to shrine lighting candles. You can plonk down on a bench, pew, or chair and fall asleep. Some activities are more edifying than others. The liturgical movement rightly wanted as many people to learn the Mass and follow it as possible. But what I just wrote also stands.

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 Post subject: Re: Legit Catholic reform
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 1:43 pm 
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The young fogey wrote:
It is a problem that needs correction among well-meaning Catholics both in the Novus Ordo and in the traditionalist movement. People mistake nonessentials for essentials and don't use the nonessentials properly. Note that I'm not saying to throw away the nonessentials, just to fine-tune people's understanding of them.


Church reform has to tackle major issues - not every little thing you experience that appears to be a problem. That is what "legitimate reform" encompasses.

Which, again, leads to the point I am trying to make:

Please demonstrate where the devotional issues you describe are a massive problem that calls for reform. Again, select 10 random parishes in your diocese and I guarantee that is not going to be anywhere even close to being an issue. Hence, it is not a legitimate reform item because the issue is not widespread, eating away at the Catholic life of a typical diocese.

"But trads..."

Who are a minority and do not share every problem in common anyway.

Quote:
The rosary during Mass? Sure you can! Many people don't remember that traditional laity have a lot of freedom. Traditional Catholic churches were very much strict decorum in the sanctuary but come as you are for the laity, as long as you're not a distraction or disruptive. That's what I believe in. You can quietly use your rosary. You can follow the Mass in a hand missal. You can walk from shrine to shrine lighting candles. You can plonk down on a bench, pew, or chair and fall asleep. Some activities are more edifying than others. The liturgical movement rightly wanted as many people to learn the Mass and follow it as possible. But what I just wrote also stands.


The stuff you added is not what I am talking about.
You can follow the entire Mass fine and pray the Rosary during the inaudible parts where only the priest prays in the traditional Roman rite.
The "liturgical movement" was not one entity, with one mind, and one way of doing things.

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