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 Post subject: Re: I Wish I Could be Catholic
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2022 2:44 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Light of the East, influenced by the universalist David Bentley Hart, is laboring under the belief that αἰώνιον means "a really long time," not "eternal". So he interprets this passage as

"and these will go off to be punished for a really long time, but the righteous to really long life"


No, actually I am more influenced by the reading of Greek scholars, whose pencil neither you nor I could carry. This is how one learns - you go to those who have made it a lifetime journey to study, learn, and become doctors of the science they pursue.

You would do better to use an accurate translation of the Greek, such as Young's Literal Translation:

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

What happens after the next age we do not know. Nothing is said about it, but we do know this:

1Corinthians 15:28 and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.

Inspired scripture shows us a time when the Son shall turn over the Kingdom to God that God might be all in all. Millions of people in an eternal place of torment, cursing God and wishing Him dead, is not my idea of being "all in all."


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 Post subject: Re: I Wish I Could be Catholic
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2022 2:46 pm 
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Vern Humphrey wrote:
Light of the East wrote:
quote="Vern Humphrey" 46 l And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Very clearly, both the sheep and the goats have faith -- they call Jesus "Lord" -- but the sheep are going to Heaven for what they did (feeding the hungry, etc.) and the goats are going to hell for what they did NOT do.

25:46 καὶ ἀπελεύσονται οὗτοι εἰς κόλασιν αἰώνιον οἱ δὲ δίκαιοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον

Except I can't find the words "eternal" or "hell" in there anywhere?


Did you miss this part?

"46 l And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”


See my post to Peregrinator. That's not what the Greek says. Bad translation (atrocious really).


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 Post subject: Re: I Wish I Could be Catholic
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2022 7:18 pm 
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I will try and be charitable here.....

I don't give two hoots what scholars of any tradition believe;I don't even care one wit about what even St. Thomas or the Doctors of the Church say unless it aligns with the dogmas of the Church. Where the Church is silent, then opinions can differ. But in this case, there is alignment with the Doctors and the Church.

And the Church says the elect will go to heaven and the damned to hell for eternity.

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 Post subject: Re: I Wish I Could be Catholic
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2022 9:51 am 
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Peetem wrote:
I will try and be charitable here.....

I don't give two hoots what scholars of any tradition believe; I don't even care one wit about what even St. Thomas or the Doctors of the Church say unless it aligns with the dogmas of the Church. Where the Church is silent, then opinions can differ. But in this case, there is alignment with the Doctors and the Church.

And the Church says the elect will go to heaven and the damned to hell for eternity.


That was very charitable, and I took it as such. You are simply defending the truth that you understand it and according to your conscience.


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 Post subject: Re: I Wish I Could be Catholic
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2022 4:24 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:
Vern Humphrey wrote:
Light of the East wrote:
quote="Vern Humphrey" 46 l And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Very clearly, both the sheep and the goats have faith -- they call Jesus "Lord" -- but the sheep are going to Heaven for what they did (feeding the hungry, etc.) and the goats are going to hell for what they did NOT do.

25:46 καὶ ἀπελεύσονται οὗτοι εἰς κόλασιν αἰώνιον οἱ δὲ δίκαιοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον

Except I can't find the words "eternal" or "hell" in there anywhere?


Did you miss this part?

"46 l And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”


See my post to Peregrinator. That's not what the Greek says. Bad translation (atrocious really).


"Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'"

Since there is no English phrase "age-during," it strikes me that "eternal" would be a fair translation.


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 Post subject: Re: I Wish I Could be Catholic
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 3:55 am 
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To free the angels that fell, Gods plan was to create man, flesh on earth and Jesus as God in the eternal flesh became human flesh and destroyed death forever. The angels had an eternal soul and a choice. But without flesh and good works, they were not able to restore friendship or atone for their sin, thus making man greater than the angels in heaven. Man as flesh also had a choice and an eternal soul like the angels, but flesh made them greater than the angels in heaven. Flesh allowed salvation through sacrifice and good works to return eternal life for flesh and soul.

Peace always,
StePhen


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 Post subject: Re: I Wish I Could be Catholic
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:02 am 
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Mary knew. Mary accepted what was offered to her. To become the queen of heaven. Approached by an angel and informed completely as to her task. “Behold I am the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to Your will.” And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior. Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name. And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to those that fear him.
As Christs’ mother Mary knew more than any human as to Christs divinity and ultimate plan. She had knowledge of revelation. She knew her son and his plan as God. She went home with John after the crucifixion. This is where the unknown disciple, John at the time took her home. Proof Jesus was an only child, Jewish custom was to give your mother to your best friend. On the cross he looked at his mother and said, Woman, behold your son, then he spoke to you by name before you were born, "Ecce Mater Tua". “Disciple, behold your mother.” This is when we became brothes and sisters of Jesus and share in his divine eternal flesh in heaven. Carry on disciple, at the time it was John. Take Mary home as John did, listen to her, Pray to her and ask for guidance from the Queen of Council. This explains why The Gospel of John is so different than the synoptic Gospels. The Gospel according to John speaks more about Jesus being God even from the first lines, "In the beginning there was the Word," the Church, the spirit, "and the Word was with God," Jesus Christ in the eternal flesh "and the Word was God," God himself, face to face with Jesus. Here the trinity is defined and revealed again. The more we pray to Mary, the more she directs us to Him through whom all life comes through to the Father. And Revelations, Mary was there with John and provided much information that only the Mother of God could possibly know. He had the answers from Mary the New arc of the Covenant, The queen of Martyrs and God Bearer.

Rev "And there were given to the woman two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the desert unto her place, where she is nourished for a time and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent."

Peace always,
Stephen Andrew


Last edited by StephenAndrewMaher on Tue Sep 13, 2022 5:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: I Wish I Could be Catholic
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 2:15 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
Light of the East, influenced by the universalist David Bentley Hart, is laboring under the belief that αἰώνιον means "a really long time," not "eternal". So he interprets this passage as

"and these will go off to be punished for a really long time, but the righteous to really long life"


No, actually I am more influenced by the reading of Greek scholars, whose pencil neither you nor I could carry. This is how one learns - you go to those who have made it a lifetime journey to study, learn, and become doctors of the science they pursue.

You would do better to use an accurate translation of the Greek, such as Young's Literal Translation:

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

What happens after the next age we do not know. Nothing is said about it, but we do know this:

1Corinthians 15:28 and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.

Inspired scripture shows us a time when the Son shall turn over the Kingdom to God that God might be all in all. Millions of people in an eternal place of torment, cursing God and wishing Him dead, is not my idea of being "all in all."


Strong's says it is without beginning nor end; eternal.

Which source did you use?

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 Post subject: Re: I Wish I Could be Catholic
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 7:13 pm 
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anawim wrote:
Light of the East wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
Light of the East, influenced by the universalist David Bentley Hart, is laboring under the belief that αἰώνιον means "a really long time," not "eternal". So he interprets this passage as

"and these will go off to be punished for a really long time, but the righteous to really long life"


No, actually I am more influenced by the reading of Greek scholars, whose pencil neither you nor I could carry. This is how one learns - you go to those who have made it a lifetime journey to study, learn, and become doctors of the science they pursue.

You would do better to use an accurate translation of the Greek, such as Young's Literal Translation:

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

What happens after the next age we do not know. Nothing is said about it, but we do know this:

1Corinthians 15:28 and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.

Inspired scripture shows us a time when the Son shall turn over the Kingdom to God that God might be all in all. Millions of people in an eternal place of torment, cursing God and wishing Him dead, is not my idea of being "all in all."


Strong's says it is without beginning nor end; eternal.

Which source did you use?


Young's Literal Translation. Dr. Ilaria Ramelli. (Durham University; Cambridge University · Sacred Heart University; Erfurt University MWK; KUL
Professor - BA MA MA PhD Dr h.c. Postdoc Dr.hab.mult. FRHistS) The Concordant Literal New Testament (which translates Matthew 25:46 thusly: "And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.") Rotherham’s The Emphasized Bible, which is a literal word for word translation of the Bible, translates the word aionios here and elsewhere in the Bible as “Age Abiding.”

Just a couple of sources I have researched as I investigated the idea of Universal Restoration of all things. I depend on people far wiser and more learned than I am to help me understand such deep issues.


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 Post subject: Re: I Wish I Could be Catholic
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 7:22 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:
anawim wrote:
Light of the East wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
Light of the East, influenced by the universalist David Bentley Hart, is laboring under the belief that αἰώνιον means "a really long time," not "eternal". So he interprets this passage as

"and these will go off to be punished for a really long time, but the righteous to really long life"


No, actually I am more influenced by the reading of Greek scholars, whose pencil neither you nor I could carry. This is how one learns - you go to those who have made it a lifetime journey to study, learn, and become doctors of the science they pursue.

You would do better to use an accurate translation of the Greek, such as Young's Literal Translation:

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

What happens after the next age we do not know. Nothing is said about it, but we do know this:

1Corinthians 15:28 and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.

Inspired scripture shows us a time when the Son shall turn over the Kingdom to God that God might be all in all. Millions of people in an eternal place of torment, cursing God and wishing Him dead, is not my idea of being "all in all."


Strong's says it is without beginning nor end; eternal.

Which source did you use?


Young's Literal Translation. Dr. Ilaria Ramelli. (Durham University; Cambridge University · Sacred Heart University; Erfurt University MWK; KUL
Professor - BA MA MA PhD Dr h.c. Postdoc Dr.hab.mult. FRHistS) The Concordant Literal New Testament (which translates Matthew 25:46 thusly: "And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.") Rotherham’s The Emphasized Bible, which is a literal word for word translation of the Bible, translates the word aionios here and elsewhere in the Bible as “Age Abiding.”

Just a couple of sources I have researched as I investigated the idea of Universal Restoration of all things. I depend on people far wiser and more learned than I am to help me understand such deep issues.


So those are other translations, and not a Greek dictionary?

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 Post subject: Re: I Wish I Could be Catholic
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 7:24 pm 
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Vern Humphrey wrote:
Light of the East wrote:
Vern Humphrey wrote:
Light of the East wrote:
quote="Vern Humphrey" 46 l And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Very clearly, both the sheep and the goats have faith -- they call Jesus "Lord" -- but the sheep are going to Heaven for what they did (feeding the hungry, etc.) and the goats are going to hell for what they did NOT do.

25:46 καὶ ἀπελεύσονται οὗτοι εἰς κόλασιν αἰώνιον οἱ δὲ δίκαιοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον

Except I can't find the words "eternal" or "hell" in there anywhere?


Did you miss this part?

"46 l And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”


See my post to Peregrinator. That's not what the Greek says. Bad translation (atrocious really).


"Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'"

Since there is no English phrase "age-during," it strikes me that "eternal" would be a fair translation.


So it strikes you that the eternal God, who was under neither constraint nor need to create the sentient beings called humanity, and foreknowing the fall of man in the Garden, would nonetheless go ahead with the Creation, foreknowing that billions would be doomed to a never-ending torment beyond description? And with the Bible stating that God IS love (not just that He loves, but that He is love itself), He would nonetheless go forward with this creation in which the telos of the majority of mankind would be eternal misery of varying degrees?

And if God foreknew all this and yet went ahead with this, we can only surmise (or I should say "It strikes me") that this must be His eternal will for the majority of mankind, that they should suffer endless torment to bring Him glory (or for some other purpose). After all, as DBH states in his exposition of the thinking of the Early Fathers in this regard, protology is eschatology, that is, a thing is known by the end it is created for. So the creation of mankind was purposed to suffer eternity without relief, and that for some "mysterious purpose of God," as the wretched Calvinists state, which we cannot know other than to bow before His will in creating men unto damnation.

Sorry . . . I have stopped believing in such a monstrous picture of God. This sounds more like paganism than God, or as one Orthodox bishop stated "I see your trouble. You believe in Zeus, not Jesus."


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 Post subject: Re: I Wish I Could be Catholic
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 7:31 pm 
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anawim wrote:
So those are other translations, and not a Greek dictionary?


I'm not sure the point you are making here. There are translations and then there are translations. Augustine translated, but he didn't know Greek and stated openly that he hated the language. Is his translation to be trusted if he didn't even speak or know the original language?

Then you have the problem of 500 years of Christianity in the Greek speaking world teaching Universal Restoration without anyone calling a council to question it or calling it heresy. If aionios means "eternal," then how could men like St. Isaac of Syria, St. Gregory of Nyssa, the Cappadocian Fathers, St. Gregory, and others, who revered the scriptures, dare to oppose it and teach otherwise? That would be the height of dishonest for them, wouldn't it?

A simple study of Christian history shows us who started up the idea of eternal torment, who really got the ball rolling on it, and why it was promoted so vigorously in the Western Church. Honestly, there is more to this than just questioning the use of one word in the Scriptures. It is a whole package: Greek language, philosophical understanding of God, verses in the Bible that point to Universal Restoration, Christian history, the councils (or I should say, the lack of condemnation in the councils), politics, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: I Wish I Could be Catholic
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 9:43 pm 
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I would label this as highly tendentious at best. I don't care to go over this ground again; I just want anyone who happens by to know that there are those who believe, on good evidence, that the above contentions are not well-founded.

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 Post subject: Re: I Wish I Could be Catholic
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2022 11:39 am 
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I was interested in this thread. Then I saw LotE invade with his typical nonsense. Then I lost interest.

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 Post subject: Re: I Wish I Could be Catholic
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 1:37 pm 
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theJack wrote:
I was interested in this thread. Then I saw LotE invade with his typical nonsense. Then I lost interest.


It is indeed extremely bizarre how someone who when I first met him was a fire and brimstone preacher has morphed into someone who thinks Hitler, Stalin, Jeffrey Dahmer, and Charles Manson are experiencing eternal bliss in heaven because no sin is bad enough to warrant punishment. I can only assume it is a classic case of 'overcompensation'.

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 Post subject: Re: I Wish I Could be Catholic
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 5:38 pm 
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Dahmer became a Christian in prison before he was killed.

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 Post subject: Re: I Wish I Could be Catholic
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 9:32 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Dahmer became a Christian in prison before he was killed.


He said he was but God only knows if he was telling the truth, if he wasn't he would hardly be the first criminal claim to have a sudden conversion when he gets caught. When he was arrested he told the police that "God does not exist therefore I can do whatever I want"

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 Post subject: Re: I Wish I Could be Catholic
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 10:11 pm 
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I don't have that much a problem with conversions after being caught. I get the argument that the conversion isn't real because you're just looking to escape damnation after execution or, perhaps, to escape execution because you found God. But I don't really buy that. Rather, I tend to think it's more like, the game is up. You explored your sin and found out where it took you. Your curiosity is "satisfied" and now you're left to see where it left you. And where it's left you is with nothingness. It turns out, in a perverse way not unlike Solomon, you learn that satisfying your evil desires just left you even more empty than you were before.

So where might you turn? For a lot of those people, it's not surprising to me that they'd turn to God, to Christ, to the Church. They're searching for meaning, and when you're literally locked away with nothing to do but think, it's sort of hard to keep running from your Maker.

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Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


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 Post subject: Re: I Wish I Could be Catholic
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2022 4:40 am 
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Gods will is that it is man's will to be face to face in the eternal flesh above the angels with God and the Holy Spirit and Jesus in the eternal flesh in heaven glorifing and praising Jesus as God and God and the Holy Spirit for all of eternity.
"Through all of our faith and good works were are reminded that the heart has been set in motion for someting more than we can ever image, that there is so much more. Heaven is real."

Peace always,
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 Post subject: Re: I Wish I Could be Catholic
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2022 6:03 pm 
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theJack wrote:
I don't have that much a problem with conversions after being caught. I get the argument that the conversion isn't real because you're just looking to escape damnation after execution or, perhaps, to escape execution because you found God. But I don't really buy that. Rather, I tend to think it's more like, the game is up. You explored your sin and found out where it took you. Your curiosity is "satisfied" and now you're left to see where it left you. And where it's left you is with nothingness. It turns out, in a perverse way not unlike Solomon, you learn that satisfying your evil desires just left you even more empty than you were before.

So where might you turn? For a lot of those people, it's not surprising to me that they'd turn to God, to Christ, to the Church. They're searching for meaning, and when you're literally locked away with nothing to do but think, it's sort of hard to keep running from your Maker.

David Berkowitz (aka "Son of Sam") also underwent a jailhouse conversion that appears to be sincere.

https://jimmyakin.com/2021/08/son-of-sa ... world.html

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