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Exodus Chapter 6 and the Passover Meal
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Author:  Stargazer [ Tue Apr 19, 2022 11:09 am ]
Post subject:  Exodus Chapter 6 and the Passover Meal
These are the 4 cups of the Passover Meal.

Exodus 6; 6-7
"Therefore, say to the Israelites: I am the Lord."

First Cup- "I will free you from the forced labor of the Egyptians"
Second Cup- "I will deliver you from their slavery"
Third Cup - "I will rescue you by my outstretched arm..."
Fourth Cup - "I will take you as my people"

I learned this from Scott Hahn as have many of you, but would like to add some thoughts on this since this is the season we are in.

It was at the 3rd cup that Our Lord changed the format and instituted the Eucharist and was the reason for His stating that, "I will drink with you no further" as He would not partake of the 4th cup "The cup of Consummation" until He was dying on the cross.

Exodus 19

Verse 1 "In the 3rd month (Sivan) after their departure from the land of Egypt on its first day..." Verse 11 "be ready for the 3rd day..."

So the Jews have established this day in between, the 2nd of Sivan, as "The day of Distinction" Establishing the Israelites as God's "special possession".

The 2nd of Sivan translates to May 13th. The day God establishes the Israelites as His people, "...though all the earth is mine."

Three days, prefiguring Christ in the tomb.

Christ was Crucified on 3 Apr 33, run the calendar ahead 40 days to Pentecost, the establishment of the Church, and the date you ask,
May 13th!

So God, The King of the Universe, established the Covenant with the Jews, and the establishment of the Church on the same day.

Final thought

Psalm 30 (31); 2-6
Verse 2-5 "In you O Lord, I take refuge...
...in your justice rescue me...
...deliver me...
...you will free me...

Unbelievable, here are the same 4 verbs in reverse order! from Exodus 6, since it is David repeating back to God what David knows God will do for him.

Stay with me now...

Then Psalm 30 (31) verse 6, David's words that Christ repeats from the Cross!, "Into your hands I commend my spirit" as he consumed the 4th cup (wine in the sponge)

To sum up; God spoke, David answered, then Christ quoted David!

If you read Psalm 30 (31) 1-6 verse six seems out of place, and doesn't make sense until you look at the whole picture then it takes your breath away.

The cup of deliverance, deliverance is the third verb, the 3rd cup from Davids perspective (the Eucharist) as he repeats back to God what God's plan is for us.
Author:  Obi-Wan Kenobi [ Tue Apr 19, 2022 8:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Exodus Chapter 6 and the Passover Meal
The problem is that the current Passover ritual post dates the time of Christ, so the Fourth Cup may not hold water. (I’ve been complaining about this for years, so I’m not doing this just to annoy you.)
Author:  Stargazer [ Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Exodus Chapter 6 and the Passover Meal
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
The problem is that the current Passovefind youur ritual post dates the time of Christ, so the Fourth Cup may not hold water. (I’ve been complaining about this for years, so I’m not doing this just to annoy you.)


Don't you find David's verbs in the exact reverse order amazing!

The current Passover ritual doesn't have any relevance as to what was practiced at the time of Christ?
I've seen numerous different Modern Passover Formats why would you ever think of applying those to the practice at the time of Christ?

O and the fourth cup holds wine not water. :D

Its Ok about your constant pessimism I don't find it demoralizing but a challenge.

Todays Gospel ,
"Oh how foolish you are! How slow of heart to believe all that the prophets spoke ... beginning with Moses (received those 4 cups) and all the prophets (David repeats those four cups back to God in reverse order, a mirror, the blueprint for salvation).
Christ was explaining this to those on the road to Emmaus!
Author:  Obi-Wan Kenobi [ Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Exodus Chapter 6 and the Passover Meal
Darn. I meant to make that water joke myself. Thanks for catching it.

I’m not pessimistic. I have a strong desire to see good causes supported by good arguments.
Author:  Stargazer [ Thu Apr 21, 2022 6:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Exodus Chapter 6 and the Passover Meal
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Darn. I meant to make that water joke myself. Thanks for catching it.

I’m not pessimistic. I have a strong desire to see good causes supported by good arguments.


"Good causes" demonstration of the transfer of the levitical priesthood and evidence for the institution of the Eucharist during a Passover Meal.

"Good argument" No gratuitous assertions, provide evidence that the current Passover meal format does not follow the four cup format and shows that it was not followed at the time of Christ.

There are a 1000 different variations of the Passover Meal at this point by the way.
Author:  Obi-Wan Kenobi [ Thu Apr 21, 2022 10:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Exodus Chapter 6 and the Passover Meal
You invoked it in your argument. It’s up to you to show that it’s relevant.
Author:  Stargazer [ Thu Apr 21, 2022 9:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Exodus Chapter 6 and the Passover Meal
[quote="Obi-Wan Kenobi"]You invoked it in your argument. It’s up to you to show that it’s relevant.[/quot
No, you contest my scriptural observations which I thoroughly illustrated, I presented NO argument. You responded to my observations
with an argument not me, and gave no evidence for your argument. You must demonstrate your assertion that the Jews did not follow a four cup format at the time of Christ.
Author:  Stargazer [ Tue May 03, 2022 5:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Exodus Chapter 6 and the Passover Meal
Where did you go?
Author:  Obi-Wan Kenobi [ Tue May 03, 2022 6:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Exodus Chapter 6 and the Passover Meal
You're trying to convince me, right? Then convince me.
Author:  Stargazer [ Wed May 04, 2022 9:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Exodus Chapter 6 and the Passover Meal
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
You're trying to convince me, right? Then convince me.


No, I'm not trying to convince you there are 4 cups in a Passover Meal, that would be absurd, since every Jew in the world knows there are 4 cups in a Passover Meal.

Its like saying there are not 10 commandments so convince me there are. Its like that conversation we had a while back trying to convince you what the last letter in the Hebrew alphabet was, that was just as painful, like playing cards with yer brothers kids.
Author:  Zeno [ Wed May 04, 2022 10:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Exodus Chapter 6 and the Passover Meal
I approved this but with a warning to be more substantive in your replies. Father has already pointed out that the current ritual post dates the time of Christ. Repeating your previous assertion after it has been rebutted without addressing the response you already got will not be allowed going forward.
Author:  kage_ar [ Wed May 04, 2022 4:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Exodus Chapter 6 and the Passover Meal
Stargazer wrote:

Its like saying there are not 10 commandments so convince me there are.


There are far more and far fewer than 10 commandments :fyi:
Author:  Obi-Wan Kenobi [ Wed May 04, 2022 10:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Exodus Chapter 6 and the Passover Meal
Every Jew in the world may know that, so it should be simple enough to demonstrate, right? If I said, "I don't think there are 10 Commandments," you could point out to me in the CCC where it says that there are. Convince me. I'm willing to admit I'm wrong if I'm presented with good evidence.
Author:  Stargazer [ Fri May 13, 2022 10:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Exodus Chapter 6 and the Passover Meal
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Every Jew in the world may know that, so it should be simple enough to demonstrate, right? If I said, "I don't think there are 10 Commandments," you could point out to me in the CCC where it says that there are. Convince me. I'm willing to admit I'm wrong if I'm presented with good evidence.


Today is Fatima, May 13th, the 2nd of Sivan. In the Jewish calendar it is the "Day of Distinction", establishing the Israelite people as God's distinct people (Exodus 19; 5).

Today's Optional 1st Reading for Fatima Memorial
Isaiah 61; 9-11

Verse 9 "Their descendants shall be renowned among the nations, and their offspring among the peoples; all who see them shall acknowledge them as a race the Lord has blessed."

The reading for today illustrates the "Day Of Distinction" May 13th! The 2nd of Sivan.

Verse 10 "I rejoice heartily in the Lord in my God is the joy of my soul...like a bridegroom adorned with a diadem like a bride bedecked with her jewels."

Whoa! do you get that in verse 10 Language is the establishment of the Church, the Bride of Christ which also happened on May 13th in the year 33.

To boil it all down we have 3 rescue missions, the first establishing the Israelites as the Distinct people of God, the Second establishes the Church and finally Our Lady is sent on a rescue mission on May 13th, 1917.

WHO PICKED IS 61; 9-11 FOR THIS DAY? WHO DID IT? HOW DID THEY KNOW?
Author:  Stargazer [ Sun May 15, 2022 12:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Exodus Chapter 6 and the Passover Meal
Oh, sorry I got distracted by the inspiration of scripture that shocks me when I discover these facts. (May 13th and its deeper meaning)

Anyway where were we? I believe you stated that the "fourth cup doesn't hold water". I think we settled the fact that it was wine not water. hehehehe

1. Read Scott Hahns books the Fourth Cup and The Lambs Supper. In these books is a very thorough and scholarly endeavor explaining the
the 4 cup format of the Passover Meal that existed from prior to Christ, with its foundations as I have illustrated in the OP, based on the 4 "I will" statements from Exodus 6; 6-7. Christ was following the 4 cup format.

Is your dispute that there was no 4 cup format prior to the time of Christ? Or is your dispute strictly about the existence of a 4th cup?
Author:  Zeno [ Mon May 16, 2022 2:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Exodus Chapter 6 and the Passover Meal
Father is familiar with Hahn's work, he is telling you it is not convincing. Can you find a source outside Hahn or cite the research Hahn is relying on so it can be reviewed outside of his book?
Author:  Peetem [ Mon May 16, 2022 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Exodus Chapter 6 and the Passover Meal
Stargazer wrote:
Oh, sorry I got distracted by the inspiration of scripture that shocks me when I discover these facts. (May 13th and its deeper meaning)

Anyway where were we? I believe you stated that the "fourth cup doesn't hold water". I think we settled the fact that it was wine not water. hehehehe

1. Read Scott Hahns books the Fourth Cup and The Lambs Supper. In these books is a very thorough and scholarly endeavor explaining the
the 4 cup format of the Passover Meal that existed from prior to Christ, with its foundations as I have illustrated in the OP, based on the 4 "I will" statements from Exodus 6; 6-7. Christ was following the 4 cup format.

Is your dispute that there was no 4 cup format prior to the time of Christ? Or is your dispute strictly about the existence of a 4th cup?


So I’ve read the 4th cup and Hahn gives the subject an admirable effort. However, he must make assumptions about the Last Supper that scripture doesn’t fully support. Doesn’t mean he’s wrong, and a priest I like very much at our parish holds to the 4th cup theory. So people I respect believe it. But, the idea of a 4th cup is just not supported by a reading of the text.

I think Pope Emeritus Benedict makes a good case that its a “Todah” [meal] and I’ve read others who say the same. Their position is more supported by scripture. That theory is also not fully supported by scripture because the text is silent about all the details. Again, doesn’t mean they are wrong, its just not fully supported (although I think there is a better case).

So you’re free to believe the theory of the 4th cup. But we probably shouldn’t claim its dogma or Church teaching or anything like that. Rather, we should simply say something like “its a theory I support” and leave it at that.
Author:  kage_ar [ Tue May 17, 2022 9:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Exodus Chapter 6 and the Passover Meal
Zeno wrote:
Father is familiar with Hahn's work, he is telling you it is not convincing. Can you find a source outside Hahn or cite the research Hahn is relying on so it can be reviewed outside of his book?


When I was a newbie Convert, I discovered Dr Hahn's 4th Cup theory. I was not yet to the place where I could distinguish what is a scholarly opinion and what is defined teaching. I did not know that a Bishop/Cardinal blurb or introduction or Imprimatur/Nihil Obstat did not mean "doctrine".

Dr. Hahn's work speaks the language of the Biblically knowledgable non-Catholic. It picks up where our last 14-part teaching series from pastor XYZ left off and is CATHOLIC and pow we are super fans.

I was a person who did the same sort of "WOW! LOOK AT THIS TRUTH I FOUND!!!" back then, it really takes time and humility and the willingness to be taught. I got there (well, on most things :P ), others will as well.
Author:  Obi-Wan Kenobi [ Tue May 17, 2022 5:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Exodus Chapter 6 and the Passover Meal
Bishop Barron is in much the same spot. I respect both him and Dr. Hahn, but I worry that well-meaning people will take their opinions as certainty.
Author:  Nathan [ Sat May 21, 2022 10:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Exodus Chapter 6 and the Passover Meal
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Bishop Barron is in much the same spot. I respect both him and Dr. Hahn, but I worry that well-meaning people will take their opinions as certainty.


This wonderful theologian from the Liturgical Institute explained the same thing to me about the 4th cup. I was concerned at the time because to many, Scott Hahn was/is a breath of fresh air to lay scripture reading, and the 4th cup in particular is a prepared talk given by FOCUS missionaries. I’ll try and dig up the emails. From what I remember, it’s as you said, the Seder meal as practiced today is a product of modern Rabbinic Judaism, not the old temple Religion practiced in time of Christ.

All that being said, I think the best scripture scholars should be fluent in Latin so they can review the exegetical and hermeneutical pedigree of the Church properly, let alone the original languages of the various manuscripts themselves.
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