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 Post subject: What do you believe happens to infants that die?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:04 am 
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Heaven?


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 Post subject: Re: What do you believe happens to infants that die?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2022 9:45 am 
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 Post subject: Re: What do you believe happens to infants that die?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2022 9:36 am 
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Limbo. Also, what Dorothy said.

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 Post subject: Re: What do you believe happens to infants that die?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2022 9:39 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
Limbo. Also, what Dorothy said.


No such place.

Also, why should there be any restriction of them from heaven as they have no sin and Christ, by His death, has defeated death?


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 Post subject: Re: What do you believe happens to infants that die?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:39 am 
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I guess you're unfamiliar with the Dogmas of Original Sin and the necessity of Baptism. The Tradition, however, is not, and that is why it posits Limbo as a place of perfect natural happiness. But you keep on the universalist train if you like. Seen where it's taking your hero Hart these days?

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 Post subject: Re: What do you believe happens to infants that die?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2022 4:58 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: What do you believe happens to infants that die?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2022 7:37 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
I guess you're unfamiliar with the Dogmas of Original Sin and the necessity of Baptism. The Tradition, however, is not, and that is why it posits Limbo as a place of perfect natural happiness. But you keep on the universalist train if you like. Seen where it's taking your hero Hart these days?


That's not Hart. That's Orthodoxy. We have no such belief as Original Sin nor of Limbo. And didn't the Roman Church quietly jettison this a few years ago? I thought I read that somewhere.

Children as infants have no sin. Therefore, no bar to heavenly felicity as infants


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 Post subject: Re: What do you believe happens to infants that die?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2022 12:05 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:
We have no such belief as Original Sin nor of Limbo. And didn't the Roman Church quietly jettison this a few years ago? I thought I read that somewhere.


Pope Emeritus, Benedict XVI, said that limbo is not dogma, it isn't even a doctrine, but rather it is "a theological idea; one that has merit". So it wasn't jettisoned, just put in it's proper perspective.

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Children as infants have no sin.


Original sin is as if Adam & Eve were the Bonnie & Clyde of Eden, who made off with our inheritance, leaving us not only an account that is depleted, but one that is in the 'red', leaving us with a debt. A debt we could never repay because it left us with a fallen nature, a weakened will, and a darkened intellect. That is what 'original sin' means in Catholic theology.

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 Post subject: Re: What do you believe happens to infants that die?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2022 8:25 pm 
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anawim wrote:
Original sin is as if Adam & Eve were the Bonnie & Clyde of Eden, who made off with our inheritance, leaving us not only an account that is depleted, but one that is in the 'red', leaving us with a debt. A debt we could never repay because it left us with a fallen nature, a weakened will, and a darkened intellect. That is what 'original sin' means in Catholic theology.


That would be the Western view. We have no such understanding of ancestral sin and its effects in the Orthodox East.


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 Post subject: Re: What do you believe happens to infants that die?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:34 am 
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Light of the East wrote:
That would be the Western view. We have no such understanding of ancestral sin and its effects in the Orthodox East.

You don't now you mean.

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 Post subject: Re: What do you believe happens to infants that die?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 7:06 am 
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Light of the East wrote:
gherkin wrote:
I guess you're unfamiliar with the Dogmas of Original Sin and the necessity of Baptism. The Tradition, however, is not, and that is why it posits Limbo as a place of perfect natural happiness. But you keep on the universalist train if you like. Seen where it's taking your hero Hart these days?


That's not Hart. That's Orthodoxy. We have no such belief as Original Sin nor of Limbo.

What I attributed to Hart is universalism.

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And didn't the Roman Church quietly jettison this a few years ago? I thought I read that somewhere.

There's no such thing as the Roman Church. And of course, no, the Church didn't "jettison" Limbo. But we're not going to discuss this here, as Zeno asked.

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 Post subject: Re: What do you believe happens to infants that die?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:43 am 
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Light of the East wrote:
anawim wrote:
Original sin is as if Adam & Eve were the Bonnie & Clyde of Eden, who made off with our inheritance, leaving us not only an account that is depleted, but one that is in the 'red', leaving us with a debt. A debt we could never repay because it left us with a fallen nature, a weakened will, and a darkened intellect. That is what 'original sin' means in Catholic theology.


That would be the Western view. We have no such understanding of ancestral sin and its effects in the Orthodox East.


That's the point. It's not ancestral sin. It's the lack of the perfect state of grace that our ancestors possessed. It's not that we are inheriting something, but that we're not inheriting what they had.

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 Post subject: Re: What do you believe happens to infants that die?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:25 pm 
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anawim wrote:
Light of the East wrote:
anawim wrote:
Original sin is as if Adam & Eve were the Bonnie & Clyde of Eden, who made off with our inheritance, leaving us not only an account that is depleted, but one that is in the 'red', leaving us with a debt. A debt we could never repay because it left us with a fallen nature, a weakened will, and a darkened intellect. That is what 'original sin' means in Catholic theology.


That would be the Western view. We have no such understanding of ancestral sin and its effects in the Orthodox East.


That's the point. It's not ancestral sin. It's the lack of the perfect state of grace that our ancestors possessed. It's not that we are inheriting something, but that we're not inheriting what they had.


We inherited death. What is being celebrated at Pascha is that Christ trampled death by death and broke down the gates of Hades. Death is no more and the inheritance which was left to us (a rotten inheritance indeed) by Adam and Eve is done away with.


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 Post subject: Re: What do you believe happens to infants that die?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2022 3:36 pm 
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DogDude wrote:
Heaven?


There are some interesting things in this site from the International Theological Commission of the Roman Catholic Church

Unbaptized Infants

There are a number of statements which are interesting to me because in the East, we have no concept of "sinful and wicked babies" (my words) due to the inheritance of the guilt of Original Sin, therefore, the mulling over and musing done in this article, such as the following:

Quote:
There seems to be a tension between two of the biblical doctrines just mentioned: the universal salvific will of God on the one side, and the necessity of sacramental Baptism on the other. The latter seems to limit the extension of God’s universal salvific will.


Then I read something like this:

Quote:
The necessity of sacramental Baptism is a necessity of the second order compared to the absolute necessity of God’s saving act through Jesus Christ for the final salvation of every human being.


and I find myself shaking my head wondering what I just read. Sounds like the phrase "absolute necessity" makes the Catholic Church almost insulted by the idea that anyone could wind up in hell. I find myself scratching my head, and some of you know exactly why.

Anyway, perhaps this page will be of interest to you.


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 Post subject: Re: What do you believe happens to infants that die?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2022 7:10 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:
anawim wrote:
Light of the East wrote:
anawim wrote:
Original sin is as if Adam & Eve were the Bonnie & Clyde of Eden, who made off with our inheritance, leaving us not only an account that is depleted, but one that is in the 'red', leaving us with a debt. A debt we could never repay because it left us with a fallen nature, a weakened will, and a darkened intellect. That is what 'original sin' means in Catholic theology.


That would be the Western view. We have no such understanding of ancestral sin and its effects in the Orthodox East.


That's the point. It's not ancestral sin. It's the lack of the perfect state of grace that our ancestors possessed. It's not that we are inheriting something, but that we're not inheriting what they had.


We inherited death. What is being celebrated at Pascha is that Christ trampled death by death and broke down the gates of Hades. Death is no more and the inheritance which was left to us (a rotten inheritance indeed) by Adam and Eve is done away with.


We inherited an empty bag with an IOU in it. That's the debt that Jesus paid. But we still lack anything in the bag. That's concupiscence.

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 Post subject: Re: What do you believe happens to infants that die?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 7:37 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:
DogDude wrote:
Heaven?


There are some interesting things in this site from the International Theological Commission of the Roman Catholic Church

Unbaptized Infants

There are a number of statements which are interesting to me because in the East, we have no concept of "sinful and wicked babies" (my words) due to the inheritance of the guilt of Original Sin, therefore, the mulling over and musing done in this article, such as the following:

Quote:
There seems to be a tension between two of the biblical doctrines just mentioned: the universal salvific will of God on the one side, and the necessity of sacramental Baptism on the other. The latter seems to limit the extension of God’s universal salvific will.


Then I read something like this:

Quote:
The necessity of sacramental Baptism is a necessity of the second order compared to the absolute necessity of God’s saving act through Jesus Christ for the final salvation of every human being.


and I find myself shaking my head wondering what I just read. Sounds like the phrase "absolute necessity" makes the Catholic Church almost insulted by the idea that anyone could wind up in hell. I find myself scratching my head, and some of you know exactly why.

Anyway, perhaps this page will be of interest to you.


"The Catholic Church."
The international Theological Commission is the not the Catholic Church - it has no authority and is as fallible as any opinioned sect/group East, West, and wherever.

Also, the musing of, "limit the extension of God’s universal salvific will" is silly. One can then question everything God has done or has allowed to happen and scuff at true doctrine as placing "limits" on God.
How could Adam and Eve fallen? Wouldn't God's grace be sufficient? The concept of Adam and Even falling is to put a limit on God's grace.
What of this doctrine that God made creatures outside the beatific vision (angles and humans)? This limits God's ability to create being already in the beatific vision and hence never falling away and suffering to begin with.
Why even have sacraments? That limits God's grace to physical things that we have to seek out and do.
Etc.

It's not a very clever musing from the "Theological" Commission, 5th rate at best.

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 Post subject: Re: What do you believe happens to infants that die?
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 12:02 pm 
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I actually do have a dog in this fight, I had a child who died in utero without baptism.

With full belief in the dogma of Original Sin, I trust that soul to the mercy of God and pray that the traditional teaching of Limbo is real.

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 Post subject: Re: What do you believe happens to infants that die?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2022 12:40 am 
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IMO, baptized infants who die go to Heaven. Unbaptized go to what was once called limbo. I’ve not received a memo on a new name.
Thing about limbo & babies, Our Lord has it covered very well I think. Limbo for this, as I read somewhere recently, was described as a wonderful peaceful place for departed babies, not a punishment.
To help myself, I think of Limbo as a permanent happy, playful gathering of little ones.

Jesus said, forbid them not to come to me for to such as these belongs the kingdom of heaven. True statement with an unspoken qualification of baptism.

Regardless, the innocents who die are very loved by God & I don’t think we need to worry too much, the children are fine under the care of Our Father.


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