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 Post subject: Re: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 12:08 pm 
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Stargazer wrote:
gherkin wrote:
Like I said above, you may not know what the word liberal means, but Rush Limbaugh certainly did.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism



He who believes he has the right to choose to believe that which is other than the truth. You can quote me if you like.

I would if I knew what you meant. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 1:35 pm 
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Vern Humphrey wrote:
Stargazer wrote:
gherkin wrote:
Like I said above, you may not know what the word liberal means, but Rush Limbaugh certainly did.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism



He who believes he has the right to choose to believe that which is other than the truth. You can quote me if you like.

I would if I knew what you meant. :D


Simply my definition of a liberal is someone who believes he has the right to believe a lie.


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 Post subject: Re: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 3:52 pm 
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"Liberal" as used here has a specific meaning and not what you willy-nilly decide it is. The pickle gave you a starting point. Maybe try learning a bit about it before you continue to belabor your misguided point.

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 Post subject: Re: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 4:16 pm 
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Let me share another resource, from Light to the Nations 2: The Making of the Modern World https://www.catholictextbookproject.com ... -nations-2
Quote:
Before we say what Liberalism is, we must say what it is not. Liberalism is not simply those political ideas held by the people and political parties we today call “liberal.” In the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries, Liberalism had a much broader meaning. Indeed, many of those we call “conservative” in our time would have been called “Liberals” in those earlier centuries.

Liberalism, as it developed in the 17th and 18th centuries, was a political and social philosophy that emphasized the freedom of individuals to follow their own desires in their social, religious, and economic life. To the Liberal way of thinking, human beings by nature are individuals who live unconnected to anyone and have no obligation to obey anyone. Since by nature, every person is born completely free, every person is equal to every other person. In the state of nature, no one has a superior who may tell him what to do.

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 Post subject: Re: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2021 8:35 pm 
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Zeno wrote:
"Liberal" as used here has a specific meaning and not what you willy-nilly decide it is. The pickle gave you a starting point. Maybe try learning a bit about it before you continue to belabor your misguided point.


My definition of liberal was somewhat tongue in cheek but I didnt want to get into 400 different definitons of liberal from each of the last 5 centuries.

I was simply stating to the OP that if you want to understand in real basic terms what is wrong with min wage laws Thomas Sowell is a good source, but then I was attacked again by the Pikel. The names I listed are solid anti-communists (conservatives), Commies (liberals).

So once you understand what is wrong with min wage laws then you can look at what the Church teaches. Just dont give me a headache with the def of liberal in 16th century.

Ok now you can lock the thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2021 12:16 pm 
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Stargazer wrote:
I was attacked again by the Pikel.


"Attacked" = "The OP was asking about Catholic social teaching, though, not libertarian theorizing." :salut:

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 Post subject: Re: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2021 12:39 pm 
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Right. And when talking about Catholic social teaching it is necessary to understand the words used as the Church does. The Church does not have "400 different definitions" it has the one that the Pickle pointed out and you stubbornly refuse to acknowledge.

Oh and you are completely backwards. We should not look at a moral issue through American political lenses and then consult the Church. We need to consider what the Church says and judge the political approaches on how well they measure up to the truth as taught by the Church.

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 Post subject: Re: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:44 pm 
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Zeno wrote:
Right. And when talking about Catholic social teaching it is necessary to understand the words used as the Church does. The Church does not have "400 different definitions" it has the one that the Pickle pointed out and you stubbornly refuse to acknowledge.

Oh and you are completely backwards. We should not look at a moral issue through American political lenses and then consult the Church. We need to consider what the Church says and judge the political approaches on how well they measure up to the truth as taught by the Church.


I dont disagree with that but you have to understand the issue.

For example lets say I dont know Jack about voter ID Legislation so I go find an encyclical letter on voter ID? Before I even know what the issue is?


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 Post subject: Re: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2021 4:23 pm 
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The teachings of the Church in this area come in response to the injustices which are the roots of the problem we still wrestle with today. It's not new or unique to us.

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 Post subject: Re: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2021 9:11 pm 
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I think we have to distinguish between religion and other fields. The early Church was holy, but was also Socialist -- and went bankrupt. So when we talk about things like Minimum Wage we have to understand the Kharisma of Infallibility doesn't extend to Economics, Physics, Medicine and so on.


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 Post subject: Re: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:41 pm 
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There have been many encyclicals addressing this. It is most certainly not an area the Church keeps out of, nor should it be.

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 Post subject: Re: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:43 pm 
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You can not separate the just treatment of your fellow man from the practice of your faith, nor vice versa.

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 Post subject: Re: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 11:43 am 
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Vern Humphrey wrote:
The early Church was holy, but was also Socialist -- and went bankrupt.



This is an odd claim.

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 Post subject: Re: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 4:01 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
IMHO, minimum wage laws as they currently exist--state-level laws--are unjust for a variety of reasons. The principal one is that living wages are far too location-dependent to be legislated at such a high level. IOW, they violate subsidiarity. But they are also wrongheaded for other reasons, among them what you mention. That is, they basically provide cover for employers. "Hey, we pay an agreed-upon, state-mandated wage. If you need more, take it up with your congressman!" That kind of thing.

Ultimately, the Church is against wage slavery and holds up wages not as a good thing in themselves, but as a tool the workman can use to save up and become economically free by coming to own his own means of production: by ceasing to be an employee, that is. Very hard for the post-industrial-revolution mindset to even fathom.

Violation of subsidiarity where may I find this in Catholic Social teaching


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 Post subject: Re: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 8:43 am 
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Stop attacking me, bro. :fyi:

Where may you find what in Catholic social teaching? If you mean the Church's teaching on subsidiarity, then the answer is: everywhere, for subsidiarity is one of the foundational notions of CST. If you mean the point that state-level (or, more obviously, federal-level) laws mandating a certain wage for the whole relevant area, then you won't find it as such in CST. Note that your quoted section begins with "IMHO," which is to say that I am applying the principle to the particular situation.

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 Post subject: Re: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 9:48 am 
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gherkin wrote:
Stop attacking me, bro. :fyi:

Where may you find what in Catholic social teaching? If you mean the Church's teaching on subsidiarity, then the answer is: everywhere, for subsidiarity is one of the foundational notions of CST. If you mean the point that state-level (or, more obviously, federal-level) laws mandating a certain wage for the whole relevant area, then you won't find it as such in CST. Note that your quoted section begins with "IMHO," which is to say that I am applying the principle to the particular situation.


What ta ya say we handle this at the lowest possible level. :laughhard


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 Post subject: Re: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:46 am 
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Is there something to handle? Do you want to clarify your question so that there could conceivably be a reasonable discussion, or not? I'm not sure I'm in for a serious discussion at this point, but I know I can't engage in one if I don't know what you're asking about.

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 Post subject: Re: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 4:07 pm 
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Zeno wrote:
Vern Humphrey wrote:
The early Church was holy, but was also Socialist -- and went bankrupt.



This is an odd claim.


Chapter 4 and following, Acts:
Quote:
32All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. 33With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all 34that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.
36Joseph, a Levite from Cyprus, whom the apostles called Barnabas (which means “son of encouragement”), 37sold a field he owned and brought the money and put it at the apostles’ feet.

Luke makes it clear that this practice is no longer in effect at the time he is writing. And it's easy to see why -- if people sold property, rather that donating some of the INCOME of that property, bankruptcy was inevitable. That is why Saint Paul placed so much emphasis on collecting money for the Church in Jerusalem, but not so much for other churches (which remained solvent,)


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 Post subject: Re: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 4:52 pm 
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That passage doesn't describe socialism. If the early Church had been socialist, then the Church would have owned and regulated the means of production. St. Benedict's monasteries were socialistic, for sure. The monks as individuals had no right to any property, even their own bodies, as St. Benedict points out. But the community held and governed the community's property--and the Benedictine monasteries often became (often to their detriment, it seemed to many reformers like St. Bernard) extremely wealthy.

Socialism as a political system is unequivocally condemned by the Church, to be sure. But that's not because socialism necessarily leads to bankruptcy.

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 Post subject: Re: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:17 pm 
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I have heard the socialism part claimed and debunked as by the Pickle, but I have never heard the suggestion it led to bankruptcy. Does that even make sense in that time period?

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