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 Post subject: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:56 pm 
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Sons of Thunder
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I know people often associate this issue with left wing politics. But put aside political ideology for a moment.

According to Catholic social teaching, an employer must provide a just wage. A just wage is defined as, "one which under normal conditions at least sufficient to support an honorable and frugal worker. A certain amount of provision for old age and for the days of unemployment must also be reckoned" (Jone)

Do you think that today, minimum wage violates this principle? Presupposing that the employer can pay their employees a living wage, but they just don't want to.


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 Post subject: Re: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:20 pm 
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Can you restate your question? I'm not sure I'm getting it. It seems like you're asking whether current minimum wage laws let employers off the hook by allowing them to pay less than a living wage. Is that it? Or are you getting at something else?

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 Post subject: Re: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:40 pm 
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Sons of Thunder
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gherkin wrote:
It seems like you're asking whether current minimum wage laws let employers off the hook by allowing them to pay less than a living wage. Is that it?


Yup, that's what I'm asking.

If it's Catholic moral teaching that employers must pay a livable wage (if they're able to, of course), doesn't minimum wage law potentially violate that principle? Or is there some other principle that I don't know about here?


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 Post subject: Re: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:59 pm 
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IMHO, minimum wage laws as they currently exist--state-level laws--are unjust for a variety of reasons. The principal one is that living wages are far too location-dependent to be legislated at such a high level. IOW, they violate subsidiarity. But they are also wrongheaded for other reasons, among them what you mention. That is, they basically provide cover for employers. "Hey, we pay an agreed-upon, state-mandated wage. If you need more, take it up with your congressman!" That kind of thing.

Ultimately, the Church is against wage slavery and holds up wages not as a good thing in themselves, but as a tool the workman can use to save up and become economically free by coming to own his own means of production: by ceasing to be an employee, that is. Very hard for the post-industrial-revolution mindset to even fathom.

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 Post subject: Re: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:17 pm 
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Sons of Thunder
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Interesting. I guess I took all this for granted until I read about the Church's teaching on this recently. Honestly it surprised me; I was second guessing myself if I understood it correctly.

Out of curiosity, do you have any opinions about Universal Basic Income? For or not for it? Skeptical? Contrary to the Church's social teachings?


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 Post subject: Re: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 7:59 pm 
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I'm pretty strongly opposed, on essentially the same grounds as articulated above. It violates subsidiarity, and it puts the focus on income rather than on property, where it belongs.

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 Post subject: Re: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:07 am 
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Does this same line of thinking apply to part-time students who are working for gas money, not to support themselves or families?

I think I recall a study which suggested less than 1% of all minimum wage earners are trying to support themselves or a family….

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 Post subject: Re: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:42 am 
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Peetem wrote:
Does this same line of thinking apply to part-time students who are working for gas money, not to support themselves or families?

I think I recall a study which suggested less than 1% of all minimum wage earners are trying to support themselves or a family….

I don't know the study, but here's one consideration about it. Since if you have children you can likely to just about as well financially, or better, by not working, this would explain at least part of the reason why those minimum wage jobs aren't filled by parents.

As far as the living wage, the view of Fr. Ryan is that there should not be discriminations made due to the status of the wage slave. This is partly because one of the most common objections to living wages is correct in noting that if such discriminations are made (that is, if an employer is required to pay a father more than a non-father), then the employer has a strong incentive to hire non-fathers rather than fathers, and to punish men for becoming fathers. We don't want the structure of the living wage in itself to encourage injustice. It's also because we want the father-to-be to be able to save the extra income that he doesn't presently need, so that he can later use it towards establishing his family and towards getting ahold of the means of production for himself. It is an opportunity for the young man to practice economy.

(One might say that's a nice idea but what it really encourages is profligacy in the young. That's a fair point but note that the extra income as such isn't a perverse incentive to the youngster. Also note that many people, even in a well-structured polis, are unsuited to ownership and real economic freedom. We'll always have, and always need, employees--people whose work is directed by others. The very fact that a young man is not sufficiently motivated to save and plan for the future tends to show he's an employee and not suited to economic freedom. But I digress.)

So, in short, I think if we're going to have wages, then we should have just wages. Just wages are determined locally based on what's required for a workman to comfortably support himself and his family, as well as to plan and save for the future while living thriftily. It doesn't matter as such whether the wage earner is actually in that situation now, or is simply in preparation for it. (Or, for that matter, if he's past it.)

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 Post subject: Re: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2021 5:22 pm 
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If I'm runnin a business and the Minimum wage increases, I now have 2 choices decrease the number of employees, or fold.
How just is that? People dont understand how increasing min wage costs people their jobs and bus owners their bus. and increases unemployment.

Min wage is being used by the left to crush bus. and the people.


Last edited by Stargazer on Mon Dec 13, 2021 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2021 5:50 pm 
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Here are a few sources to learn how the min wage laws are unjust.

1. Thomas Sowell my favorite
2. Milton Friedman
3. Allen Keys
4. That little jewish guy thats so smart cant think of his name

all of these guys have u tubes to source heres one that is short and sweet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca8Z__o52sk


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 Post subject: Re: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:36 pm 
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The OP was asking about Catholic social teaching, though, not libertarian theorizing.

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 Post subject: Re: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:07 am 
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gherkin wrote:
The OP was asking about Catholic social teaching, though, not libertarian theorizing.


Oh really pickel, the truth is the truth even if it mite come from a theorizing IMHO pickel


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 Post subject: Re: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:20 am 
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Criminally Insane Cucumber
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Stargazer wrote:
gherkin wrote:
The OP was asking about Catholic social teaching, though, not libertarian theorizing.


Oh really pickel, the truth is the truth even if it mite come from a theorizing IMHO pickel

Correct. However, since libertarians reject Catholic social teaching and instead promote modernist liberalism, you're not going to find any much truth there.

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 Post subject: Re: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:56 am 
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gherkin wrote:
Stargazer wrote:
gherkin wrote:
The OP was asking about Catholic social teaching, though, not libertarian theorizing.


Oh really pickel, the truth is the truth even if it mite come from a theorizing IMHO pickel

Correct. However, since libertarians reject Catholic social teaching and instead promote modernist liberalism, you're not going to find any much truth there.


Thomas Sowell? Really? I think that would be the first time he was called that.


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 Post subject: Re: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:00 am 
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Criminally Insane Cucumber
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You may not know what the word liberal means, but I'm very confident Sowell does.

:fyi: :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:47 am 
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gherkin wrote:
You may not know what the word liberal means, but I'm very confident Sowell does.

:fyi: :wink:

Well I guess its no surprise that Thomas Sowell is a Liberal, hangin around the likes of Clarence Thomas and Rush that seems to happen.


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 Post subject: Re: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 12:47 pm 
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Criminally Insane Cucumber
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Right, and liberalism is anti-Catholic. It's unfortunate that so many modern Catholics are unaware of this.

So that's what I'm saying here--the OP was asking about Catholic social teaching, not libertarianism or liberalism more broadly.

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 Post subject: Re: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 2:55 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
Right, and liberalism is anti-Catholic. It's unfortunate that so many modern Catholics are unaware of this.

So that's what I'm saying here--the OP was asking about Catholic social teaching, not libertarianism or liberalism more broadly.


Well I ll be the first to get the word out that Rush Limbaugh was a liberal hehehe


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 Post subject: Re: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:58 pm 
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Criminally Insane Cucumber
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Like I said above, you may not know what the word liberal means, but Rush Limbaugh certainly did.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

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 Post subject: Re: Is minimum wage unjust?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:43 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
Like I said above, you may not know what the word liberal means, but Rush Limbaugh certainly did.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism



He who believes he has the right to choose to believe that which is other than the truth. You can quote me if you like.


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