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 Post subject: Catholic View of the 4 Horsemen, the 7 seals, etc.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:19 pm 
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I googled this and found a few different answers so I have a few questions...

Do most Catholic's believe the 7 seals are already fulfilled?

Would I be correct in saying that Catholic's are 'Historicist?

Are there any 'futurist' Catholics?

What's would you say is the purpose of a 'seal'?

What book is the "sweet and bitter little book" John ate in Revelation 10?

What is the Catholic view of the 'locust' in Revelation 9?

Let's start with these questions, thanks.

Tomorrow I go to mass for the first time since this pandemic!


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 Post subject: Re: Catholic View of the 4 Horsemen, the 7 seals, etc.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:19 pm 
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Not to be snarky at all, but I’m 100% positive that “most Catholic’s” would have no idea what you are talking about (i.e., 7 seals, “sweet and bitter little book”, 4 horsemen, etc.)

Same applies to “historicist” versus “futurist” Catholic’s. I’m 100% certain few Catholics have given these things any thought whatsoever.

Now, are you asking what the Church Father’s and other learned apologists think? If so, there are volumes of books that discuss these subjects....

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic View of the 4 Horsemen, the 7 seals, etc.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 8:40 pm 
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Mel A Tonin wrote:
I googled this and found a few different answers so I have a few questions...

Do most Catholic's believe the 7 seals are already fulfilled?

Would I be correct in saying that Catholic's are 'Historicist?

Are there any 'futurist' Catholics?

What's would you say is the purpose of a 'seal'?

What book is the "sweet and bitter little book" John ate in Revelation 10?

What is the Catholic view of the 'locust' in Revelation 9?

Let's start with these questions, thanks.

Tomorrow I go to mass for the first time since this pandemic!


Catholics are free to hold any and all of the 4 views.
To understand John eating the book, you have to first go back and look at Ezekiel 3, and the context of him eating the scroll.
The locusts were not able to attack those with the mark on their forehead, which again refers back to Ezekiel 9, when God gave the instruction to mark the forehead with tau (shaped like a cross).

To understand Revelation, taking a close examination of both Ezekiel and Daniel, can shed a lot of light.

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic View of the 4 Horsemen, the 7 seals, etc.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:53 am 
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Catholic Answers gives a sound summary of the Catholic approach to the book.

It is a book of hope that Jesus will always be with the Church even when there is persecution:

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print ... apocalypse

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic View of the 4 Horsemen, the 7 seals, etc.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:20 am 
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Catholics are free to hold any and all of the 4 views.
To understand John eating the book, you have to first go back and look at Ezekiel 3, and the context of him eating the scroll.
The locusts were not able to attack those with the mark on their forehead, which again refers back to Ezekiel 9, when God gave the instruction to mark the forehead with tau (shaped like a cross).

To understand Revelation, taking a close examination of both Ezekiel and Daniel, can shed a lot of light.

I'm always in the books of Daniel and Ezekiel. There's a difference between John eating the book and Ezekiel eating the scroll. Ezekiel's belly wasn't make bitter but John's was. I'd have to look at Ezekiel 9. Thanks for the reply.


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 Post subject: Re: Catholic View of the 4 Horsemen, the 7 seals, etc.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:26 am 
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aussie_aussie_oi_oi wrote:
Catholic Answers gives a sound summary of the Catholic approach to the book.

It is a book of hope that Jesus will always be with the Church even when there is persecution:

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print ... apocalypse

I did read the page and agree with most of it. This is what I disagree with...
Quote:
John, therefore, identifies the prime enemy of the Church in his own time as the Roman empire (= the beast), the tool of the Dragon (= Satan). Because it has prostituted itself (Babylon = Rome) it cannot win. It will be completely overthrown, and the Church is sure to triumph.

Babylon is NOT Rome. Babylon is Babylon and can only be associated with either false religion or literal Babylon.


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 Post subject: Re: Catholic View of the 4 Horsemen, the 7 seals, etc.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:35 am 
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Unless Babylon is Jerusalem, which also fits.

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic View of the 4 Horsemen, the 7 seals, etc.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 6:24 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Unless Babylon is Jerusalem, which also fits.

The way I look at that is all different than most and I can explain more about this if you like, but it's not easy to explain.

Most people believe THE WHORE OF BABYLON is either Rome, America, or a unification of the world's religions united by the Pope.

'Babylon the Great' is simply a large false religion and I'm absolutely convinced that religion is Islam. Mecca and Medina Saudi Arabia are situated in the desert of Saudi Arabia. The 'whore of Babylon' - who commits the abominations of the earth - is either the jihadist sects of Islam, or Iran's Shia sect which is one of the greatest sponsors of terrorism in the world. Why do I believe Babylon the Great is Islam and the harlot her jihadist sects?

"And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. So he carried me away in the spirit into the [u]wilderness:[/u] and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns."

The wilderness is better translated THE DESERT.

John is taken into the desert to witness the judgment of the harlot that sits upon or ‘occupies’ this beast. That means the harlot religion of Islam is the dominate religion of this beast.

The locust of Revelation 9 are the Arabs. Locust are likened to the Arabs in the old Testament.

The 10 horned seven headed beast of Revelation 17 - AKA - a unified Middle-East - likely an Islamic Caliphate, is said to hate the harlot and "burn her with fire." I'm not sure about this is but there are two possibilities. Either Iran nukes Mecca/Medina, or someone burns/nukes the Dome of the Rock complex in East Jerusalem - or someone nukes Iran.

In response to your post that Babylon may be Jerusalem...

Islam - AKA Mecca and Medina - turn East Jerusalem into a harlot after Israel is invaded and the Arabs take full control of the Old City. Muslim's want to make East Jerusalem and the Dome of the Rock complex the Islamic Capital of their worldwide Caliphate.

There's an anti-Christ monument called the Dome of the Rock that "sits upon or occupies" the ruins of two Jewish Temples today on the Temple Mount AKA Mount Moriah, which is at the geographical center of Jerusalem's seven mountains, and God's only personally claimed piece of land on earth.

Inscriptions on the octagonal structure of the Dome are anti-Christ. They say... -

There is no God but Allah. - God has no son; He begetteth not. - God taketh not unto Himself a son. - God has no associate. - Muhammad is the messenger of God. - Allah will preside on Judgment Day.

There are two images of demons visible in the marble at the entry way of the Dome. They were not etched into the marble but became visible over time.

Why would Islam be called "the whore of Babylon?"

This is no joke -

What more could a harlot religion promise its followers than a mansion in paradise with as many as 72 bedrooms with a virgin in each one for committing the abominations of the earth? The number of virgins they get is dependent upon the magnitude of the abomination they commit.


Last edited by Mel A Tonin on Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic View of the 4 Horsemen, the 7 seals, etc.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:46 pm 
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Babylon was a code name for ancient Rome.

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic View of the 4 Horsemen, the 7 seals, etc.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:36 pm 
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I took a whole course on Revelation. There are very few certain, simple answers, and Babylon = Rome is not one of them. St. Peter uses it that way, and it's reasonable to suggest that's the intended use here, but it's far from certain.

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic View of the 4 Horsemen, the 7 seals, etc.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:01 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I took a whole course on Revelation. There are very few certain, simple answers, and Babylon = Rome is not one of them. St. Peter uses it that way, and it's reasonable to suggest that's the intended use here, but it's far from certain.

I've paid my dues studying Revelation and you're right, there are no simple answers, but some are certain. I believe the scriptures most certainly point to Islam and the Arab's and Persians.

The Babylon Peter was talking about may not have been Rome. At that time there were two cities called Babylon, one in Egypt and I forgot where the other one was.


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 Post subject: Re: Catholic View of the 4 Horsemen, the 7 seals, etc.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:24 pm 
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Moving this thread to the Lyceum. :fyi:


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 Post subject: Re: Catholic View of the 4 Horsemen, the 7 seals, etc.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:41 pm 
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The thing is, there has been nearly 2000 years worth of people who were certain they understood something about Revelation. Every one has been wrong so far, which suggests to me that a little epistemological caution goes a long way.

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic View of the 4 Horsemen, the 7 seals, etc.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:20 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
The thing is, there has been nearly 2000 years worth of people who were certain they understood something about Revelation. Every one has been wrong so far, which suggests to me that a little epistemological caution goes a long way.
You have no idea how often I heard that one. The four horsemen and the 'seals' have a purpose that most people don't realize. They are an event and a person - the rider - responsible for bringing that 'seal' to pass. More importantly is they are "end-time events" that signal the time of the end and esp. the Lord's return is approaching.

Some people like SDA'S believe the four horsemen have passed between the 1st and 5th centuries, and some that they've progressively opened over the last 2,000 years. Some, like me, believe they open at the very end of the age. They don't open slowly or over a long period of time. To say a seal opens slowly or over time beginning centuries ago, - or that they are in a constant mode of revelation over the centuries - defeats the purpose of them even being called a seal.

The four horsemen are END-TIME events and people meant to signify the last days are upon us and the fulfillment of end-time prophecy is NOW unfolding. Revelation 6 on to the end of the book covers a very short period of time. From the last trump in Revelation 11 there's very likely only a 45 day duration before the Lord returns.

The four horsemen give us the 'opening signs' of the end-times. Horsemen figuratively indicate that they pass swiftly and that there's very little time left before the world really goes bad (tribulation) and the Lord returns. They show us that the fulfillment of the rest of the book of Revelation is upon us with bigger things to come.

From the last trump in Revelation 11 on, there's very likely only a 45 day duration before the Lord returns.


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 Post subject: Re: Catholic View of the 4 Horsemen, the 7 seals, etc.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:45 pm 
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Mel A Tonin wrote:
… Let's start with these questions, thanks...

I have looked into these things on occasion, but - beyond a particular interpretation being a definite maybe - I can’t provide any firm answers because I’m on the Welcoming Committee, not the Program Committee.

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic View of the 4 Horsemen, the 7 seals, etc.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:56 am 
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Mel A Tonin wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
The thing is, there has been nearly 2000 years worth of people who were certain they understood something about Revelation. Every one has been wrong so far, which suggests to me that a little epistemological caution goes a long way.
You have no idea how often I heard that one. The four horsemen and the 'seals' have a purpose that most people don't realize. They are an event and a person - the rider - responsible for bringing that 'seal' to pass. More importantly is they are "end-time events" that signal the time of the end and esp. the Lord's return is approaching.

Some people like SDA'S believe the four horsemen have passed between the 1st and 5th centuries, and some that they've progressively opened over the last 2,000 years. Some, like me, believe they open at the very end of the age. They don't open slowly or over a long period of time. To say a seal opens slowly or over time beginning centuries ago, - or that they are in a constant mode of revelation over the centuries - defeats the purpose of them even being called a seal.

The four horsemen are END-TIME events and people meant to signify the last days are upon us and the fulfillment of end-time prophecy is NOW unfolding. Revelation 6 on to the end of the book covers a very short period of time. From the last trump in Revelation 11 there's very likely only a 45 day duration before the Lord returns.

The four horsemen give us the 'opening signs' of the end-times. Horsemen figuratively indicate that they pass swiftly and that there's very little time left before the world really goes bad (tribulation) and the Lord returns. They show us that the fulfillment of the rest of the book of Revelation is upon us with bigger things to come.

From the last trump in Revelation 11 on, there's very likely only a 45 day duration before the Lord returns.


Technically we have been living in the "end-time" since our Lord's resurrection....

Nevertheless, I'm curious why all of this matters too so many people anyway?

Live a life of virtue in Christ, receive the sacraments, love your neighbor and you'll receive your reward; regardless of when the antichrist or tribulation comes.

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic View of the 4 Horsemen, the 7 seals, etc.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:34 am 
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Peetem wrote:
Mel A Tonin wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
The thing is, there has been nearly 2000 years worth of people who were certain they understood something about Revelation. Every one has been wrong so far, which suggests to me that a little epistemological caution goes a long way.
You have no idea how often I heard that one. The four horsemen and the 'seals' have a purpose that most people don't realize. They are an event and a person - the rider - responsible for bringing that 'seal' to pass. More importantly is they are "end-time events" that signal the time of the end and esp. the Lord's return is approaching.

Some people like SDA'S believe the four horsemen have passed between the 1st and 5th centuries, and some that they've progressively opened over the last 2,000 years. Some, like me, believe they open at the very end of the age. They don't open slowly or over a long period of time. To say a seal opens slowly or over time beginning centuries ago, - or that they are in a constant mode of revelation over the centuries - defeats the purpose of them even being called a seal.

The four horsemen are END-TIME events and people meant to signify the last days are upon us and the fulfillment of end-time prophecy is NOW unfolding. Revelation 6 on to the end of the book covers a very short period of time. From the last trump in Revelation 11 there's very likely only a 45 day duration before the Lord returns.

The four horsemen give us the 'opening signs' of the end-times. Horsemen figuratively indicate that they pass swiftly and that there's very little time left before the world really goes bad (tribulation) and the Lord returns. They show us that the fulfillment of the rest of the book of Revelation is upon us with bigger things to come.

From the last trump in Revelation 11 on, there's very likely only a 45 day duration before the Lord returns.


Technically we have been living in the "end-time" since our Lord's resurrection....

Nevertheless, I'm curious why all of this matters too so many people anyway?

Live a life of virtue in Christ, receive the sacraments, love your neighbor and you'll receive your reward; regardless of when the antichrist or tribulation comes.

And you have no idea how often I've heard that one too.

We have been living in the age of grace as some call it for almost 2,000 years, but we have NOT been living in the 'end-times'. They are characterized by signs that come at the 'consummation of the age.'
Why does it matter to so many people? We would not have been given SIGNS by Jesus in Mathew 24 and the Revelation IF IT DIDN'T MATTER!

Should we really be asking WHY God gave us (through Jesus) an entire 22 chapter book devoted to events and conditions that rise at end of the age? -A time when the earth would be most populous where mankind has devised some of the most horrific means of death and destruction? Why did Jesus answer with about 30 verses when his disciples asked about the signs of his return and consummation of the age? Why is the bible almost 1/3 prophecy...if it 'didn't matter'?

I could go on but I think you get the point! It matters to God - it matters to Jesus - and it should matter to us!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Catholic View of the 4 Horsemen, the 7 seals, etc.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:09 pm 
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i have it on good authority , according to two of my friends who have meticulously studied Catholic prophecy, that we are in the time of the minor chastisement, so there is quite a bit more that has to take place before the Glorious Return of our Lord :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic View of the 4 Horsemen, the 7 seals, etc.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:49 pm 
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Mel A Tonin wrote:
Peetem wrote:
Mel A Tonin wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
The thing is, there has been nearly 2000 years worth of people who were certain they understood something about Revelation. Every one has been wrong so far, which suggests to me that a little epistemological caution goes a long way.
You have no idea how often I heard that one. The four horsemen and the 'seals' have a purpose that most people don't realize. They are an event and a person - the rider - responsible for bringing that 'seal' to pass. More importantly is they are "end-time events" that signal the time of the end and esp. the Lord's return is approaching.

Some people like SDA'S believe the four horsemen have passed between the 1st and 5th centuries, and some that they've progressively opened over the last 2,000 years. Some, like me, believe they open at the very end of the age. They don't open slowly or over a long period of time. To say a seal opens slowly or over time beginning centuries ago, - or that they are in a constant mode of revelation over the centuries - defeats the purpose of them even being called a seal.

The four horsemen are END-TIME events and people meant to signify the last days are upon us and the fulfillment of end-time prophecy is NOW unfolding. Revelation 6 on to the end of the book covers a very short period of time. From the last trump in Revelation 11 there's very likely only a 45 day duration before the Lord returns.

The four horsemen give us the 'opening signs' of the end-times. Horsemen figuratively indicate that they pass swiftly and that there's very little time left before the world really goes bad (tribulation) and the Lord returns. They show us that the fulfillment of the rest of the book of Revelation is upon us with bigger things to come.

From the last trump in Revelation 11 on, there's very likely only a 45 day duration before the Lord returns.


Technically we have been living in the "end-time" since our Lord's resurrection....

Nevertheless, I'm curious why all of this matters too so many people anyway?

Live a life of virtue in Christ, receive the sacraments, love your neighbor and you'll receive your reward; regardless of when the antichrist or tribulation comes.

And you have no idea how often I've heard that one too.

We have been living in the age of grace as some call it for almost 2,000 years, but we have NOT been living in the 'end-times'. They are characterized by signs that come at the 'consummation of the age.'
Why does it matter to so many people? We would not have been given SIGNS by Jesus in Mathew 24 and the Revelation IF IT DIDN'T MATTER!

Should we really be asking WHY God gave us (through Jesus) an entire 22 chapter book devoted to events and conditions that rise at end of the age? -A time when the earth would be most populous where mankind has devised some of the most horrific means of death and destruction? Why did Jesus answer with about 30 verses when his disciples asked about the signs of his return and consummation of the age? Why is the bible almost 1/3 prophecy...if it 'didn't matter'?

I could go on but I think you get the point! It matters to God - it matters to Jesus - and it should matter to us!!!


The book of revelation is primarily a book of hope for persecuted Christians. It was written using apocalyptic language popular from about 200 BC to 200 AD - highly symbolic and essentially a “code” to folks who would understand what was being said. To others it was highly open to interpretation and confusing. While there are certainly end of the world elements in it, most of the book is about events in the first 40 years after Christ’s resurrection (i.e., destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, persecution of early Christians, the state of the early Church, etc.).

Regardless, you don’t want to hear any of that interpretation so I’ll not waste more of my time on that....

I will add that Jesus’s words about other subjects in the Gospels constitute WAY more than 30 verses on the end-times. While we should be focused on living all of the gospel, so many folks get wrapped around the end of the world stuff. It’s a shame because Jesus wants us to live lives of virtue and to focus on loving Him and our neighbor. But instead we get worried about how everything is coming to an end - an end which a good Christian should be celebrating....because we will wake up when its all over and see the face of Jesus. A day that I wish were here right now quite frankly.

And yes, some of the Bible is about prophecy because it was foretelling about the coming of the Messiah and the birth of the Church. But most of the Bible isn’t about the end of the world and all that stuff. It’s about a loving God who sent His son to die for our sins, and to provide us the means of salvation so we can spend eternity with Him.

And knowing that the world will end, the Antichrist will come and the Church will suffer won’t do much to convert sinners or save souls. But it will create quite a stir on internet message boards....

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic View of the 4 Horsemen, the 7 seals, etc.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:08 am 
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faithfulservant wrote:
i have it on good authority , according to two of my friends who have meticulously studied Catholic prophecy, that we are in the time of the minor chastisement, so there is quite a bit more that has to take place before the Glorious Return of our Lord :fyi:


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