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 Post subject: Do good people look pretty?
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 5:23 am 
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Note that by virtue of the unity that exists between soul and body (matter and form), the morally beautiful character will become physically attractive. He or she will have an attractive or beautiful face. The converse is also true. A person of bad or ignoble character will not appear attractive for very long. It is not true that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, rather, beauty is in the eyes of the one we behold.




An Introduction to Philosophy for Young People, Doug McManaman
Chapter 13, "Aristotle and the Good Life"
http://www.lifeissues.net/writers/mcm/p ... uth14.html




My initial reaction to this was "seriously?".

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Last edited by Jack3 on Wed May 27, 2020 6:14 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Do good people look pretty?
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 5:29 am 
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What are you quoting?

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 Post subject: Re: Do good people look pretty?
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 6:03 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Do good people look pretty?
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 7:40 am 
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I recently read an article that wasn't super far away from making this kind of claim, but I can't remember for the life of me what or where. It had some pictures of people partying at something like a 60's playboy club or some such, and the author was talking about how empty their eyes looked, how false their smiles, contrasted to the faces of people who were living virtuous lives. I think the bit you quoted above is best taken in that way. Take the last sentence as the key. If beauty is in the eyes, and if vicious living shows through in the eyes, then yes vicious people will be ugly and virtuous people beautiful. But that vicious person might be kinda easy on the eyes in other ways, at least for some years.

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 Post subject: Re: Do good people look pretty?
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 9:21 am 
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With all due respect, this feels like a made-to-justify-this kinda excuse. For some reason, I am not satisfied.

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 Post subject: Re: Do good people look pretty?
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 9:40 am 
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Well, 'made-to-justify' is more or less accurate, but be careful with words like 'justification.' Am I trying to tell you that you should swallow that passage whole, or am I trying to point out something positive you can take from it, maybe? Note also that the passage in question really amounts to a throwaway comment made in passing. Suppose it's bogus. So what?

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 Post subject: Re: Do good people look pretty?
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 9:44 am 
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1. Take Obama and Michelle. Is there anything wrong with their eye and smile? Why?

2. It's a very minor and passing thing, but making obviously false statements make me question thee author's credibility and reliability.

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 Post subject: Re: Do good people look pretty?
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 10:25 am 
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Keep in mind the intention of what you are reading. Yes, strictly, the authors' claim is too strong. But there's a point at which nuance becomes a hindrance, and that point is entirely dependent on what you are trying to accomplish. The point may be overstated, but it is actually a general, and exceptions don't invalidate that. They're just that: exceptions. Almost everything having to do with wisdom and morality is going to be said to be in general (unless you are speaking of those things that are objectively evil, and even here, you usually have to abstract the moral principle from the particular act before you reapply the analysis to the act).

Let me make what is probably the same point a different way. Have you never met a person who, upon first meeting them, you thought one way of their physical attractiveness . . . perhaps you thought they were a beautiful person or perhaps rather frumpy; and then, upon getting to know them, your assessment of their physical attractiveness literally reverses? The one who was at one point to you pretty becomes subjectively uglier, or the one who was less attractive takes on a more lovely air? How a person conducts themselves can rather literally affect how we perceive them. And, on the whole, people who tend to be better, more virtuous people likewise tend to become more attractive in that subjective sense as well as in an objective sense. A person truly at home in themselves, at peace with themselves, who is not contentious and who is truly humble, is pleasant to be around, not only emotionally but even physically.

Again, more nuance, but remember that emotions are both physical and intellectual, and the very notion of "attraction" is emotional. That means someone's "attractiveness" relies on some aesthetic principles of symmetry, for instance; but it also relies on your (usually sub- or preconscious) assessment of them as being pleasant or not. That assessment will directly impact your feeling, your physical feeling, about them, and thus whether or not you call them "attractive."

So there are many ways the statement is true and that further are connected at a very deep level to the virtues and a proper understanding of the soul. The claim here shouldn't be taken as an unnuanced, magical statement, as if being good somehow, mystically and magically, makes people think you are a supermodel and that being evil somehow, mystically and magically, turns you into a troll. We're dealing with a more general truth applied at multiple levels to which exceptions obviously apply.

fakeedit;

And as to your example of the Obamas, I want to recognize my personal dislike for them directly rooted in my interpretation of their words and deeds, but Michelle is actually a good example of this. On some level, she is an objectively attractive person, regarding form and figure. But she has, to me, something of dead eyes when she smiles, especially when she's angry or bitter. A similar thing could be said, for example, about Brie Larson of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. And there's also the possibility that some people pick up on this "inner beauty" that others cannot. Perception is internal, too, after all.

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 Post subject: Re: Do good people look pretty?
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 10:40 am 
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I chose the example of the Obamas bc I figured many posters on this forum don't like them morally.

I think you're saying people look better to me when I like them. But suppose I had a similar belief system, then the more I hear her speeches the more I like her, and so the more beautiful she seems to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Do good people look pretty?
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 11:57 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
1. Take Obama and Michelle. Is there anything wrong with their eye and smile? Why?

2. It's a very minor and passing thing, but making obviously false statements make me question thee author's credibility and reliability.

But if the author has credibility in general, then that means you should suppose even "obviously false" statements he makes are at least not obviously false and maybe not false at all once you properly understand them. I take it that's why you're asking about this passage, rather than just rolling your eyes and moving on. So that's good. So continue to keep in mind that when someone like this author says something that strikes you as wild or nutty, there's almost certainly more to the story than appears at first blush.

I don't know how vicious the Obamas are as persons. Obviously they wholeheartedly support deeply pernicious things, and that does tend to give some hints, but it still doesn't necessarily mean they themselves are particularly vicious persons. I wouldn't want to guess about that. Still, I do tend to see a certain spiteful arrogance in BO's eyes.

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 Post subject: Re: Do good people look pretty?
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 8:47 pm 
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https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/ed ... tiful.html

Here is something more detailed written by the same author on this topic. He says more it kesa the same things you have said.

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 Post subject: Re: Do good people look pretty?
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 10:12 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
Quote:
Note that by virtue of the unity that exists between soul and body (matter and form), the morally beautiful character will become physically attractive. He or she will have an attractive or beautiful face. The converse is also true. A person of bad or ignoble character will not appear attractive for very long. It is not true that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, rather, beauty is in the eyes of the one we behold.




An Introduction to Philosophy for Young People, Doug McManaman
Chapter 13, "Aristotle and the Good Life"
http://www.lifeissues.net/writers/mcm/p ... uth14.html




My initial reaction to this was "seriously?".
You are conflating being 'beautiful' with being 'pretty.' They are not the same.

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 Post subject: Re: Do good people look pretty?
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 11:08 am 
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Closet Catholic wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Quote:
Note that by virtue of the unity that exists between soul and body (matter and form), the morally beautiful character will become physically attractive. He or she will have an attractive or beautiful face. The converse is also true. A person of bad or ignoble character will not appear attractive for very long. It is not true that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, rather, beauty is in the eyes of the one we behold.




An Introduction to Philosophy for Young People, Doug McManaman
Chapter 13, "Aristotle and the Good Life"
http://www.lifeissues.net/writers/mcm/p ... uth14.html




My initial reaction to this was "seriously?".
You are conflating being 'beautiful' with being 'pretty.' They are not the same.

How are they different?

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Do good people look pretty?
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 11:11 am 
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In the words of the late, great Lewis Grizzard, “Beauty is only skin deep, but ugly cuts clean to the bone.”

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 Post subject: Re: Do good people look pretty?
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 11:49 am 
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"Tradition in Action" (a website I generally don't approve of), had articles about this years ago...

https://www.traditioninaction.org/relig ... ance_2.htm

https://www.traditioninaction.org/Cultu ... 6_Gaze.htm

https://www.traditioninaction.org/relig ... arance.htm

https://www.traditioninaction.org/relig ... alsMan.htm

I think it's just another way of saying how our internal dispositions can manifest itself bodily.

It's like what people say about body language. We can pick up subtle cues about a person's character and emotions based on how they carry themselves and their facial expressions.


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 Post subject: Re: Do good people look pretty?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:45 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
I chose the example of the Obamas bc I figured many posters on this forum don't like them morally.

I think you're saying people look better to me when I like them. But suppose I had a similar belief system, then the more I hear her speeches the more I like her, and so the more beautiful she seems to me.

I know it's been several days since I was on and it appears, especially with your later finding, that you got all of this addressed. I'd just briefly point out (while I can) that "liking" something or someone is not, after all, entirely subjective (in the sense that it has no grounding in objective truths).

There's an idea of sorts that animals, say dogs, are good implicit judges of character. They tend to "like" good people. It's not an absolute rule, of course, but it's oft repeated because it's rooted in something real. The same thing is said of some people. And it isn't unreasonable to think that the truly virtuous, the saint, if you will, will find wicked people at least less likable (cf Ps 139:21-22)?

tl;dr - I think "liking" someone is really telling of something much deeper, and much more objective; and the better formed of a conscience one has and the more deeply in grace one has grown, I think this becomes even truer and the main point under discussion becomes even more evident. To such truly righteous a person, I expect it's entirely self-evident.

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Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


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 Post subject: Re: Do good people look pretty?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:16 pm 
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The wicked don't like the good.

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Do good people look pretty?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:37 pm 
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And vice-versa. The question is why. It's because the (dis)ordering of the souls of the respective individuals. And that "liking" manifests (at least, normally can manifest) as attraction, and that affects one's assessment of beauty.

Good people are beautiful to the good, and that beauty has a way of being perceived as physical beauty, too. There's a very human, non-metaphysical reason that the longer I'm married (and in a good, strong marriage, I would add) that I find my wife more and more beautiful to the eye. It's not a cliche. I really mean that.

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Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


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 Post subject: Re: Do good people look pretty?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:55 pm 
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Thank you, that clears it up. On a side note, what makes a marriage good and strong?

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Do good people look pretty?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:30 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
Thank you, that clears it up. On a side note, what makes a marriage good and strong?

“If Mama ain’t happy, ain’t nobody happy.”

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