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 Post subject: Re: GKC's orthodoxy?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:17 am 
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Peregrinator wrote:
gherkin wrote:
Because Chesterton is a saint and will one day be a Doctor of the Church, it is highly appropriate to recommend his works to Catholics.

He won't even be canonized let alone made a Doctor of the Church.

Even if those claims were true--which they are not!--they're also obviously not reasons to not recommend his works to Catholics. I very regularly, for example, recommend works by Abbot Vonier, Dom van Zeller, Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange and others who are not likely to become Doctors of the Church and may or may not ever be canonized. I merely made my claim about Chesterton's sanctity and profundity as a kind of implicit a fortiori argument.

I obviously have no evidence to offer for my beliefs that Chesterton is a saint who will one day be recognized as such by the Church and that he will also be recognized as a Doctor of the Church--apart from my rather intensive study of Chesterton. I assert the claims confidently but with what is, I hope, an appropriate level of recognition that I am not the one who ultimately makes those calls, and that I could be wrong. So I say them with a smile.

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 Post subject: Re: GKC's orthodoxy?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:33 am 
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gherkin wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
There was an investigation for his cause and it was turned down. viewtopic.php?f=23&t=170791

For bogus cowardly reasons of political correctness, principally. This, too, shall pass.

In the thread linked, points are made about evidence for sanctity and heroic virtue, and about the presence of a cultus (as opposed to a fandom).

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 Post subject: Re: GKC's orthodoxy?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:42 am 
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gherkin wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
gherkin wrote:
Because Chesterton is a saint and will one day be a Doctor of the Church, it is highly appropriate to recommend his works to Catholics.

He won't even be canonized let alone made a Doctor of the Church.

Even if those claims were true--which they are not!--they're also obviously not reasons to not recommend his works to Catholics. I very regularly, for example, recommend works by Abbot Vonier, Dom van Zeller, Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange and others who are not likely to become Doctors of the Church and may or may not ever be canonized. I merely made my claim about Chesterton's sanctity and profundity as a kind of implicit a fortiori argument.

I obviously have no evidence to offer for my beliefs that Chesterton is a saint who will one day be recognized as such by the Church and that he will also be recognized as a Doctor of the Church--apart from my rather intensive study of Chesterton. I assert the claims confidently but with what is, I hope, an appropriate level of recognition that I am not the one who ultimately makes those calls, and that I could be wrong. So I say them with a smile.


Got the book.

:)

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 Post subject: Re: GKC's orthodoxy?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:13 am 
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It's true that the fact that GKC will never be canonized is not a good reason not to recommend his works to Catholics.

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 Post subject: Re: GKC's orthodoxy?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:18 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
gherkin wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
There was an investigation for his cause and it was turned down. viewtopic.php?f=23&t=170791

For bogus cowardly reasons of political correctness, principally. This, too, shall pass.

In the thread linked, points are made about evidence for sanctity and heroic virtue, and about the presence of a cultus (as opposed to a fandom).

As that thread suggests, if not for the politically correct reason, those other two reasons would very likely not seem so darn important.

Regarding those other two reasons, however, I would say this: first, there's some ambiguity regarding the alleged lack of personal spirituality. The CNS article says these are the reasons:
Quote:
Chesterton lacks a “cult” of local devotion, the lack of a “pattern of personal spirituality” that could be discerned through his writing, and charges of anti-Semitism in his writing

This 'lack of a pattern of personal spirituality' is unclear. It's assumed in your linked thread that it refers to heroic sanctity. Do we have evidence of heroic sanctity? Hard to say exactly what that amounts to. There's no set-in-stone account of this. Here's a story: Chesterton is desperately ill and has been on the edge of death. He 'comes to' and Frances, his wife, who has been caring for him asks who is taking care of him--basically, I take it, asking if he knows her--and he says "God." Is this in itself evidence of heroic virtue? No. But I wonder if it's not indicative of an attitude of mind consistent with sanctity. His first thought is of God. The whole of Orthodoxy is, in a sense, a meditation on this: a persistent and deep-rooted sense of gratitude to God, and the story of the awakening from his sickbed indicates that this sense isn't something he just wrote about.

Having this sense is probably not sufficient for heroic virtue, but it does seem necessary for it and it is at least suggestive. At any rate, I think it is undeniable that there is indeed a pattern of personal spirituality that can be easily discerned in Chesterton's works. Whether he himself lived it out to a heroic degree or whether it is something deeply Catholic like the Little Way are additional questions, but I don't believe there's room for legitimate doubt about his making a deep contribution to spirituality. It's part of why I say he is a Doctor of the Church.

There are plenty of other indications of virtue, such as his ability to befriend people like GBS while nevertheless resisting him persistently and compellingly. Chesterton never gives off Michael Voris vibes. It is universally admitted that Chesterton's dealings with children were remarkable. He was a man who persistently gave of himself, and especially to children--and in ways that they manifestly found lovable.
Those points don't rise to the level of heroic virtue as such, of course, but my point is that the story of Chesterton is the story of a man who despite being a warrior was nevertheless a man of great love and kindness.

The quick dismissal of his personal holiness in that other thread is, I think, not legitimate. None of that constitutes evidence that establishes heroic virtue, of course: I'm just saying that I think there's evidence to be considered and I am not at all confident that the evidence has been adequately addressed.

The distinction between a cult and fandom is, I think, unfair and misguided. What is this fandom and why doesn't it amount to a cult? Am I just a fan of GKC? Who gets to say that?

Must the cult always be local? It's pointed out, of course, in the thread, that the presence of a cult isn't really a requirement anyway. There sure isn't a cult of John XXIII. I'm no expert on the process of canonization, but it does not seem to me that there is any requirement of a cult. Anyway, what counts as local for Chesterton? That's a fair question, especially in our time where we've lost the reality of place, and many of its limitations.

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 Post subject: Re: GKC's orthodoxy?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:39 am 
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There is a cult of John XXIII. Just not in English-speaking countries.

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 Post subject: Re: GKC's orthodoxy?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:43 am 
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Well, the difference between cult and fandom is this: Do you admire his writing and recommend it to others, or do you pray for his intercession and seek to live your life with his life as your example? Do you read Orthodoxy or maybe The Everlasting Man during Lent? Is it spiritual reading or is it "merely" a Christian witness?

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 Post subject: Re: GKC's orthodoxy?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:00 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Well, the difference between cult and fandom is this: Do you admire his writing and recommend it to others, or do you pray for his intercession and seek to live your life with his life as your example?

I pray for his intercession, most specifically for the healing of my son. I seek to live my life with his life as I know it as an example, absolutely. Of course I don't live up to his example.
Quote:
Do you read Orthodoxy or maybe The Everlasting Man during Lent? Is it spiritual reading or is it "merely" a Christian witness?

A saint doesn't have to have written spiritual works. I suspect St. Isidore might not have. But do I read Chesterton as spiritual reading...typically not as such, because it's not typically written as such. However, his writing has so deeply informed my own ways of thought that I read virtually anything I do read, spiritual reading or otherwise, as a Chestertonian. Specifically as a Chestertonian Thomist, which is redundant in one sense but nevertheless informative.

There are additional facts about Chesterton worth contemplating. One of those wonderful bits that goes way deeper than it at first appears is the thought at the end of Orthodoxy that our Lord concealed his mirth. This hints at a running theme throughout Chesterton...there's a shyness of revealing too much. I think of his comical writings about the four faultless felons or the person who mortifies his appetite for mortification by appearing indulgent. There's a sense that the last thing Chesterton would want is for anyone to suspect he's holy. I always think of St. Thomas More's concealed hair shirt. Again, not evidence. Just saying.

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 Post subject: Re: GKC's orthodoxy?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:01 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
There is a cult of John XXIII. Just not in English-speaking countries.

OK, Paul VI. :D

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 Post subject: Re: GKC's orthodoxy?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:07 pm 
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Ditto. The Italians really like him because he was the last Italian pope.

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 Post subject: Re: GKC's orthodoxy?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:24 pm 
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My diocese, Wheeling-Charleston, has a pastoral center named after John XXIII, near Charleston. We had one named for Paul VI, too (north of Wheeling) but according to Google it's permanently closed.

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 Post subject: Re: GKC's orthodoxy?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:27 pm 
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There's a mercy home in my district, run by a religious order, named after Pope St. Paul VI.

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 Post subject: Re: GKC's orthodoxy?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:26 pm 
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There's Chesterton centers all over the place. :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: GKC's orthodoxy?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:06 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
There's Chesterton centers all over the place. :fyi:


There's one in my computer/library place.

And an artist's take, in charcoal, of the GKC portion of James Gunn's famous painting of Belloc, Baring and GKC, "Conversation Piece".

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 Post subject: Re: GKC's orthodoxy?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:32 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
There's Chesterton centers all over the place. :fyi:

They're fandom, right? Are these associated with religious devotion?

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 Post subject: Re: GKC's orthodoxy?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:03 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
gherkin wrote:
There's Chesterton centers all over the place. :fyi:

They're fandom, right? Are these associated with religious devotion?

I don't buy the "fandom" thing in the least.

If the sisters you mentioned named a place for the corporal works of mercy after someone, and that counts as devotion, what about naming a place for at least some of the spiritual works of mercy after someone--doesn't that count as religious devotion, too? Or are we thinking that only the hands count, and not the head?

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 Post subject: Re: GKC's orthodoxy?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:09 am 
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gherkin wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
gherkin wrote:
There's Chesterton centers all over the place. :fyi:

They're fandom, right? Are these associated with religious devotion?

I don't buy the "fandom" thing in the least.

If the sisters you mentioned named a place for the corporal works of mercy after someone, and that counts as devotion, what about naming a place for at least some of the spiritual works of mercy after someone--doesn't that count as religious devotion, too? Or are we thinking that only the hands count, and not the head?

Both the hands and the head count; the hands are joined and the head is bowed, seeking his heavenly intercession - isn't that what cultus basically means?

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 Post subject: Re: GKC's orthodoxy?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:26 am 
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gherkin wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
Well, the difference between cult and fandom is this: Do you admire his writing and recommend it to others, or do you pray for his intercession and seek to live your life with his life as your example?

I pray for his intercession, most specifically for the healing of my son. I seek to live my life with his life as I know it as an example, absolutely. Of course I don't live up to his example.

In case it wasn't clear, I meant "you" in the general sense and not you specifically.

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 Post subject: Re: GKC's orthodoxy?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:27 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Ditto. The Italians really like him because he was the last Italian pope.

I'm skeptical

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 Post subject: Re: GKC's orthodoxy?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 7:38 am 
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I was told that by a priest who spent three years in Rome.

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