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 Post subject: Re: Catholic View of the 4 Horsemen, the 7 seals, etc.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:07 pm 
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The book of revelation is primarily a book of hope for persecuted Christians. It was written using apocalyptic language popular from about 200 BC to 200 AD
So the book was written over a 400 year period? Sorry, that just makes no sense. How can that be when the book was addressed to seven New Testament churches located in Asia minor that were in their infancy?

When was Revelation written?

Papias, Irenaeus, Clement of Rome, Ignatius, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Eusebius, and even Jerome who lived from 340 to 419 - the one who translated the Scriptures into Latin (The Vulgate), - states clearly in two places, that John was banished under Domitian and that is when he wrote the Book of Revelation.

Justin the Martyr who was born in Rome and was a Christian apologist (defender of the faith), wrote around the middle of the second century, was a pagan philosopher who converted to Christianity. According to tradition, he was martyred for his faith. Justin clearly believed that Christians would be persecuted by the Antichrist. Nero was not THE anti-Christ and there was no 1st century anti-Christ who fulfilled the prophecies concerning him.

Hippolytus, a leader of the church at Rome who was martyred for his faith, wrote about the Antichrist in the early third century in a document titled Treatise on Christ and Antichrist.

Who would know better as to whether Jesus came back in A.D. 70 that those who were alive in A.D. 70 and the years immediately following? Or modern day preterists writing 2,000 years later?

Irenaeus, the bishop of Lyons in modern day France, wrote at length about the Antichrist toward the end of the second century. He was a student of Polycarp and lived from A.D. 120–202. He grew up in Smyrna, one of the cities where the Book of Revelation was first circulated (Rev. 2:8). He was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of the apostle John (the author of Revelation).

So THINK! Polycarp was a disciple of the apostle John (the author of the Book of Revelation) and Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp. If anyone knew when the Book of Revelation was penned, it would have been Polycarp and Irenaeus!

In Irenaeus’s work titled, Against Heresies (13:18), he tells us when John had his apocalyptic vision. He says…

"We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him [the apostle John] who beheld the apocalyptic vision."

Notice when he says John the apostle had his apocalyptic vision - "For that was seen not very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian’s reign."

Who was Domitian? Domitian was a Roman Emperor near the end of the first century whose reign began in A.D. 81 and ended with his assassination on September 18th, A.D. 96.

Conclusion -

Irenaeus says John had his "apocalyptic vision (the things he writes about in the Book of Revelation) towards the end of Domitian’s reign" and places the date of the authorship of the Book of Revelation sometime around A.D. 95 (“towards the END of Domitian’s reign”), long after the events of A.D. 70 and the destruction of Jerusalem. This statement by Irenaeus is devastating to the preterist position.
Quote:
...highly symbolic and essentially a “code” to folks who would understand what was being said.
No 'code' was intended or required to understand the book, and it was not intended to be understood by first century folks. John said, "Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near." (Rev 1:3). John doesn’t write that IF you fully understand this book and read it you’ll be blessed but only if you read it and if you keep what’s written in it.

...things which must shortly come to pass; - better translated - 'WITH SPEED' meaning when the prophecies pass - they pass 'with swiftness'. (Jerome)

...for the time - A measure of time...

...is at hand - "Shortly come to pass - is two words - the preposition 'en' and the word 'tachos'. Jerome words it, "the era is near."

Revelation wasn't understood to people in the first century. At that time 'books' were hand copied so it wasn't well circulated in the first century, especially at a time of severe Roman persecution. The book was highly open to interpretation and confusing. I believe the book comes to light at the end of days approaching the consummation of the age, because that's the purpose of the 7 seals.
Quote:
While there are certainly end of the world elements in it, most of the book is about events in the first 40 years after Christ’s resurrection (i.e., destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, persecution of early Christians, the state of the early Church, etc.).
I disagree. The first few verses of Mathew 24 may have been directed toward Jerusalem and the temple, but the question Jesus answered between verses 3 and 33 are the days that come just prior to his return and toward the end of the consummation of the age. It makes no sense that the book would be about...your quote...
Quote:
"events in the first 40 years after Christ’s resurrection (i.e., destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, persecution of early Christians, the state of the early Church, etc.)."
...because the book wasn't even written until well after AD70! It was written around AD90!
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Regardless, you don’t want to hear any of that nor any interpretation so I’ll not waste more of my time on that....
You didn't provide any interpretation, so I don't know where your coming from!
Quote:
I will add that Jesus’s words about other subjects in the Gospels constitute WAY more than 30 verses on the end-times.
I didn't say Jesus' prophetic words were limited to 30 verses!
Quote:
While we should be focused on living all of the gospel, so many folks get wrapped around the end of the world stuff.
I'm focused on living my life with Christ-centeredness. It's not easy at times, and living for Christ has nothing to do with a desire to understand the over 1,000 verses of prophecy YET to be fulfilled! We are not all called to do the same things for Christ. Some are called to be priest or pastors, some teachers, some missionaries, etc., I happen to study prophecy because prophecy is what led me to Christ. One Christian should not criticize another for what they do for the Lord.
Quote:
It’s a shame because Jesus wants us to live lives of virtue and to focus on loving Him and our neighbor. But instead we get worried about how everything is coming to an end - an end which a good Christian should be celebrating....because we will wake up when its all over and see the face of Jesus. A day that I wish were here right now quite frankly.
What's a shame? And why do you presume those of us who study bible prophecy aren't focusing on on loving Him and our neighbor? I don't get it! Besides, I study the ENTIRE bible NOT JUST prophecy! For some reason you presume that those of us who have a passion for understanding these prophecies are lacking in their walk with Christ! Why is that? You really have this all wrong! Nobody is WORRYING about anything!

People are interested in end-time prophecy because God - through His Prophets and disciples - knows that prophecy reveals the power of His foreknowledge to mankind. God was interested enough to give His disciples and prophets these prophecies, and we are blessed to have them! - Otherwise - 1/3 of our bible is a shameful waste!

Jesus would NOT have said -

"See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

And the disciples would NOT have asked...

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
Quote:
And yes, some of the Bible is about prophecy because it was foretelling about the coming of the Messiah and the birth of the Church. But most of the Bible isn’t about the end of the world and all that stuff. It’s about a loving God who sent His son to die for our sins, and to provide us the means of salvation so we can spend eternity with Him.
So what do we do? Do we neglect prophecy because some people like yourself find it irrelevant?

There are less than a dozen prophecies that predicted the Lord's first Advent and over 250 that prophesy his second Advent! It's estimated that 1/4 to 1/3 of the bible is prophecy!

According to “The Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy” by J. Barton Payne, there are 1,239 prophecies in the Old Testament and 578 prophecies in the New Testament for a total of 1,817. These prophecies are contained in 8,352 of the Bible’s verses. Since there are 31,124 verses in the Bible, the 8,352 verses that contain prophecy constitute 26.8 percent of the Bible’s volume.
Quote:
And knowing that the world will end, the Antichrist will come and the Church will suffer won’t do much to convert sinners or save souls. But it will create quite a stir on internet message boards....
You most certainly have something against those of us who study this, and my opinion is you think that prophesy is useless, and I don't think you realize how many people are curious about these things and are directed to message boards! Persecution will not only convert people, it will help purify the Church.
Quote:
Catholic resources said, "The original purpose of the Book of Revelation is NOT to scare people, NOR to predict future calamities (that will supposedly be fulfilled in our own day and age), BUT RATHER to encourage Christians of the late first century (and all later eras too!) to persevere in their faith despite and in the midst of trials and tribulations!"
I have to disagree with the portion I underlined in that statement. It's not just a 'generic' fits all interpretation!


Last edited by Mel A Tonin on Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:32 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic View of the 4 Horsemen, the 7 seals, etc.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:26 pm 
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soooooooooo.... are you a proponent of the 2nd coming being a rapture of the church, protecting them against the antichrist end times?

i so loved this book from the time i read it to every other time i've read it since... you may find it interesting

https://www.amazon.com/Rapture-End-Time ... 196&sr=8-1

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic View of the 4 Horsemen, the 7 seals, etc.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:28 pm 
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iirc, the chapter on the book of Revelation was either 138 or 168 pages long... quite interesting...and informative

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic View of the 4 Horsemen, the 7 seals, etc.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:41 pm 
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Mel A Tonin wrote:
Quote:
The book of revelation is primarily a book of hope for persecuted Christians. It was written using apocalyptic language popular from about 200 BC to 200 AD
So the book was written over a 400 year period?

This does raise some worries about interpretive abilities, I must say.

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic View of the 4 Horsemen, the 7 seals, etc.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:24 pm 
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faithfulservant wrote:
soooooooooo.... are you a proponent of the 2nd coming being a rapture of the church, protecting them against the antichrist end times?

i so loved this book from the time i read it to every other time i've read it since... you may find it interesting

https://www.amazon.com/Rapture-End-Time ... 196&sr=8-1
I'm not a pre-trib believer. Pre-tribbers have devised two returns of the Lord and some even 3 raptures! The gathering happens at the end of tribulation and ANGELS return with him - NOT believers. The word 'saints' also refers to angels. God removes His elect so that when He sends His Son Jesus to do battle, He doesn't kill believers via 'friendly fire'.

It's astounding the amount of believers who have fallen for pre-trib!


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 Post subject: Re: Catholic View of the 4 Horsemen, the 7 seals, etc.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:26 pm 
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faithfulservant wrote:
soooooooooo.... are you a proponent of the 2nd coming being a rapture of the church, protecting them against the antichrist end times?

i so loved this book from the time i read it to every other time i've read it since... you may find it interesting

https://www.amazon.com/Rapture-End-Time ... 196&sr=8-1

I looked at the link and it sounds like Curry has it right. I'm careful these days using terminology like 'rapture' and 'second coming'.

So YES I am a proponent of the rapture occurring at the second coming - at the end of tribulation.


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 Post subject: Re: Catholic View of the 4 Horsemen, the 7 seals, etc.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:40 pm 
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Mel A Tonin wrote:
I googled this and found a few different answers so I have a few questions...

Do most Catholic's believe the 7 seals are already fulfilled?

Would I be correct in saying that Catholic's are 'Historicist?

Are there any 'futurist' Catholics?

What's would you say is the purpose of a 'seal'?

What book is the "sweet and bitter little book" John ate in Revelation 10?

What is the Catholic view of the 'locust' in Revelation 9?

Let's start with these questions, thanks.

Tomorrow I go to mass for the first time since this pandemic!


These are alot of questions. From my pondering of the book for almost two decades, I believe that book is best fullfilled in two dimensions, Idealism, and spiritual historicism. Idealism means meanings that are cyclic in the Church history, meaning types of trial, tribulation and triumph that arise and fall many times, with similar spiritual patterns.

By spiritual historicsm would mean the book, in multidimensional nature, unfolds the mystery of the successive ages of the Church, from pagan ROme unto the great Apostasy.

For now, I will say that the seals, trumpets and bowls can represent a historical journey of the Church in the ways of the saint, the purgative, illuminative and unitive. Toward that end, the seals are just an expression of things that happen largely throughout the history of the Church, the purgative way: Jesus conquering nations for the Gospel, war, pestilence, economic troubles. There has never been a century in the last 2000 years that didn't some or all of these in signifcant proportion somwhere in Christendom or around it.

The trumpets can image the illuminative way, the Church growing in truth, or doctrinal development. Here, the ages of the Church where she proclaims the truth through trumpet blasts, image that those who heed her teachings are protected from spiritual harm in their forehead, or intellect, that is protected from heresy, since the Church is infallible in treaching. Those do not heed the Church are harmed spirituall by their very nature. Hence, the catastrophes of the trumpets are the spiritual calamities that ensue from the ages, such as, the Trinitarian and Christo heresies, Islam, the Great Schism, the great moral fall of the hierarchy, the Protestant Rebellion, the supernatural death of the world by a solo-ratio mentality, as in Enlightenment deist rationalism, philosophy ,science, etc, and finally the dark nght of the soul, the secular apostasy of the 20th century.

As for the scroll, that is very profound. The truths of God and His mystery are sweet to taste, as the glory and wonder of God's teaching gives us joy in our mind and heart. But digesting such truths is bitter, since the outside world does not want to hear the Gospel, cold to it. Too, one will suffer for living the truth.

Too, the land sea thing is very profound: we have strong foot on the sea, or weak foundation, and weak foot on earth, or strong foundation. What this can mean is, the stronger a source of truth is, the harder it is to see why one should accept the source, meaning, it rests on weak evidence. But sources of truth that have very little truth rest on much stronger evidence:

For example: reason is a very weak source of truth in terms of truth: all you can get from reason is basic monotheism and some conception of natural law. But reason has a very strong basis of evidence. Every man has reason. No one can really say that they cannot think.

On the other Extreme, Peter is great and powerful source of truth, the fullness of truth on earth. But the evidecne for the papacy is very weak. One has to dig through oceans of quotes of ECFs to f ind quotes that affirm Peter's special role in the apostolic college. In fact, of the myriads of quotes in ECF stuff, the testimony to general apostolic succession is very great, but Peter is much less.

I will share more later. For now, see:

http://www.theologyoftheages.com/conten ... candal.php

Too, this explains why historicism and idealism are far superior to preterism and futurism

http://www.theologyoftheages.com/conten ... uction.php

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic View of the 4 Horsemen, the 7 seals, etc.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:01 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
Mel A Tonin wrote:
Quote:
The book of revelation is primarily a book of hope for persecuted Christians. It was written using apocalyptic language popular from about 200 BC to 200 AD
So the book was written over a 400 year period?

This does raise some worries about interpretive abilities, I must say.


I was thinking the same thing. :scratch:

I was discussing the style of writing known as "apocalyptic" as existing from 200BC to 200AD. I was not saying that the book of Revelation was written over that time period.

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic View of the 4 Horsemen, the 7 seals, etc.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:10 pm 
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Mel A Tonin wrote:
Quote:
The book of revelation is primarily a book of hope for persecuted Christians. It was written using apocalyptic language popular from about 200 BC to 200 AD
So the book was written over a 400 year period? Sorry, that just makes no sense. How can that be when the book was addressed to seven New Testament churches located in Asia minor that were in their infancy?

When was Revelation written?

Papias, Irenaeus, Clement of Rome, Ignatius, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Eusebius, and even Jerome who lived from 340 to 419 - the one who translated the Scriptures into Latin (The Vulgate), - states clearly in two places, that John was banished under Domitian and that is when he wrote the Book of Revelation.

Justin the Martyr who was born in Rome and was a Christian apologist (defender of the faith), wrote around the middle of the second century, was a pagan philosopher who converted to Christianity. According to tradition, he was martyred for his faith. Justin clearly believed that Christians would be persecuted by the Antichrist. Nero was not THE anti-Christ and there was no 1st century anti-Christ who fulfilled the prophecies concerning him.

Hippolytus, a leader of the church at Rome who was martyred for his faith, wrote about the Antichrist in the early third century in a document titled Treatise on Christ and Antichrist.

Who would know better as to whether Jesus came back in A.D. 70 that those who were alive in A.D. 70 and the years immediately following? Or modern day preterists writing 2,000 years later?

Irenaeus, the bishop of Lyons in modern day France, wrote at length about the Antichrist toward the end of the second century. He was a student of Polycarp and lived from A.D. 120–202. He grew up in Smyrna, one of the cities where the Book of Revelation was first circulated (Rev. 2:8). He was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of the apostle John (the author of Revelation).

So THINK! Polycarp was a disciple of the apostle John (the author of the Book of Revelation) and Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp. If anyone knew when the Book of Revelation was penned, it would have been Polycarp and Irenaeus!

In Irenaeus’s work titled, Against Heresies (13:18), he tells us when John had his apocalyptic vision. He says…

"We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him [the apostle John] who beheld the apocalyptic vision."

Notice when he says John the apostle had his apocalyptic vision - "For that was seen not very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian’s reign."

Who was Domitian? Domitian was a Roman Emperor near the end of the first century whose reign began in A.D. 81 and ended with his assassination on September 18th, A.D. 96.

Conclusion -

Irenaeus says John had his "apocalyptic vision (the things he writes about in the Book of Revelation) towards the end of Domitian’s reign" and places the date of the authorship of the Book of Revelation sometime around A.D. 95 (“towards the END of Domitian’s reign”), long after the events of A.D. 70 and the destruction of Jerusalem. This statement by Irenaeus is devastating to the preterist position.
Quote:
...highly symbolic and essentially a “code” to folks who would understand what was being said.
No 'code' was intended or required to understand the book, and it was not intended to be understood by first century folks. John said, "Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near." (Rev 1:3). John doesn’t write that IF you fully understand this book and read it you’ll be blessed but only if you read it and if you keep what’s written in it.

...things which must shortly come to pass; - better translated - 'WITH SPEED' meaning when the prophecies pass - they pass 'with swiftness'. (Jerome)

...for the time - A measure of time...

...is at hand - "Shortly come to pass - is two words - the preposition 'en' and the word 'tachos'. Jerome words it, "the era is near."

Revelation wasn't understood to people in the first century. At that time 'books' were hand copied so it wasn't well circulated in the first century, especially at a time of severe Roman persecution. The book was highly open to interpretation and confusing. I believe the book comes to light at the end of days approaching the consummation of the age, because that's the purpose of the 7 seals.
Quote:
While there are certainly end of the world elements in it, most of the book is about events in the first 40 years after Christ’s resurrection (i.e., destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, persecution of early Christians, the state of the early Church, etc.).
I disagree. The first few verses of Mathew 24 may have been directed toward Jerusalem and the temple, but the question Jesus answered between verses 3 and 33 are the days that come just prior to his return and toward the end of the consummation of the age. It makes no sense that the book would be about...your quote...
Quote:
"events in the first 40 years after Christ’s resurrection (i.e., destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, persecution of early Christians, the state of the early Church, etc.)."
...because the book wasn't even written until well after AD70! It was written around AD90!
Quote:
Regardless, you don’t want to hear any of that nor any interpretation so I’ll not waste more of my time on that....
You didn't provide any interpretation, so I don't know where your coming from!
Quote:
I will add that Jesus’s words about other subjects in the Gospels constitute WAY more than 30 verses on the end-times.
I didn't say Jesus' prophetic words were limited to 30 verses!
Quote:
While we should be focused on living all of the gospel, so many folks get wrapped around the end of the world stuff.
I'm focused on living my life with Christ-centeredness. It's not easy at times, and living for Christ has nothing to do with a desire to understand the over 1,000 verses of prophecy YET to be fulfilled! We are not all called to do the same things for Christ. Some are called to be priest or pastors, some teachers, some missionaries, etc., I happen to study prophecy because prophecy is what led me to Christ. One Christian should not criticize another for what they do for the Lord.
Quote:
It’s a shame because Jesus wants us to live lives of virtue and to focus on loving Him and our neighbor. But instead we get worried about how everything is coming to an end - an end which a good Christian should be celebrating....because we will wake up when its all over and see the face of Jesus. A day that I wish were here right now quite frankly.
What's a shame? And why do you presume those of us who study bible prophecy aren't focusing on on loving Him and our neighbor? I don't get it! Besides, I study the ENTIRE bible NOT JUST prophecy! For some reason you presume that those of us who have a passion for understanding these prophecies are lacking in their walk with Christ! Why is that? You really have this all wrong! Nobody is WORRYING about anything!

People are interested in end-time prophecy because God - through His Prophets and disciples - knows that prophecy reveals the power of His foreknowledge to mankind. God was interested enough to give His disciples and prophets these prophecies, and we are blessed to have them! - Otherwise - 1/3 of our bible is a shameful waste!

Jesus would NOT have said -

"See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

And the disciples would NOT have asked...

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
Quote:
And yes, some of the Bible is about prophecy because it was foretelling about the coming of the Messiah and the birth of the Church. But most of the Bible isn’t about the end of the world and all that stuff. It’s about a loving God who sent His son to die for our sins, and to provide us the means of salvation so we can spend eternity with Him.
So what do we do? Do we neglect prophecy because some people like yourself find it irrelevant?

There are less than a dozen prophecies that predicted the Lord's first Advent and over 250 that prophesy his second Advent! It's estimated that 1/4 to 1/3 of the bible is prophecy!

According to “The Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy” by J. Barton Payne, there are 1,239 prophecies in the Old Testament and 578 prophecies in the New Testament for a total of 1,817. These prophecies are contained in 8,352 of the Bible’s verses. Since there are 31,124 verses in the Bible, the 8,352 verses that contain prophecy constitute 26.8 percent of the Bible’s volume.
Quote:
And knowing that the world will end, the Antichrist will come and the Church will suffer won’t do much to convert sinners or save souls. But it will create quite a stir on internet message boards....
You most certainly have something against those of us who study this, and my opinion is you think that prophesy is useless, and I don't think you realize how many people are curious about these things and are directed to message boards! Persecution will not only convert people, it will help purify the Church.
Quote:
Catholic resources said, "The original purpose of the Book of Revelation is NOT to scare people, NOR to predict future calamities (that will supposedly be fulfilled in our own day and age), BUT RATHER to encourage Christians of the late first century (and all later eras too!) to persevere in their faith despite and in the midst of trials and tribulations!"
I have to disagree with the portion I underlined in that statement. It's not just a 'generic' fits all interpretation!


Uh dude, I know when the book was written and by whom. If you'll look at what I originally posted, I said it was primarily about the 40 years after the Resurrection (33AD + about 40 years = ~73AD give or take - about the time the Romans sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the temple).

As to the other stuff you posted I'm not even going to waste my time. I will give you links to some good books (I have read all of them) that discuss Revelation from a Catholic point of view (I particularly like the 3rd one):

1) https://www.amazon.com/Rapture-Trap-Catholic-Response-Times/dp/0965922820/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=the+rapture+trap&qid=1592784385&sr=8-1

2) https://www.amazon.com/Trial-Tribulation-Triumph-Before-Antichrist/dp/1882972732/ref=sr_1_8?dchild=1&keywords=the+antichrist+catholic+book&qid=1592784430&sr=8-8

3) https://www.amazon.com/Coming-Soon-Unlocking-Revelation-Applying/dp/193101826X/ref=sr_1_10?dchild=1&keywords=revelation+catholic&qid=1592784493&sr=8-10

4) https://www.amazon.com/Wrath-God-Antichrist-Livio-Fanzaga/dp/0912141824/ref=sr_1_18?dchild=1&keywords=the+antichrist+catholic&qid=1592784554&sr=8-18

I will add that Curie's book listed by another poster is excellent too....read that one as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic View of the 4 Horsemen, the 7 seals, etc.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:40 pm 
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I know - it's such a waste of time. Sounds more like it's one cop out after another. I get that attitude all the time from Pre-tribbers and Trinitarians. Take a look at your replies. All you did was complain about me presuming my walk with Christ is amiss because I study Gods Word. It's no wonder I have such an unfavorable opinion of Christians - Catholic, Protestant, or evangelical Protestant.

You said -
Quote:
Regardless, you don’t want to hear any of that nor any interpretation so I’ll not waste more of my time on that....

Quote:
It’s a shame because Jesus wants us to live lives of virtue and to focus on loving Him and our neighbor. But instead we get worried about how everything is coming to an end - an end which a good Christian should be celebrating.
This is a good one...
Quote:
And knowing that the world will end, the Antichrist will come and the Church will suffer won’t do much to convert sinners or save souls. But it will create quite a stir on internet message boards....

You don't know the New Testament very well.
Quote:
Uh dude, I know when the book was written and by whom. If you'll look at what I originally posted, I said it was primarily about the 40 years after the Resurrection (33AD + about 40 years = ~73AD give or take - about the time the Romans sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the temple).

You said -
Quote:
I was discussing the style of writing known as "apocalyptic" as existing from 200BC to 200AD. I was not saying that the book of Revelation was written over that time period.

You did? Please big guy, this is what you said...
Quote:
It was written[/b] using apocalyptic language popular from about 200 BC to 200 AD

When you didn't provide a shred of an interpretation, you again went off again about "wasting time!"
Quote:
Regardless, you don’t want to hear any of that nor any interpretation so [b]I’ll not waste more of my time on that....

You know the old saying, "If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen."


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 Post subject: Re: Catholic View of the 4 Horsemen, the 7 seals, etc.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:41 am 
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Mel A Tonin wrote:
Quote:
I was discussing the style of writing known as "apocalyptic" as existing from 200BC to 200AD. I was not saying that the book of Revelation was written over that time period.

You did? Please big guy, this is what you said...
Quote:
It was written[/b] using apocalyptic language popular from about 200 BC to 200 AD

I am fairly sure that you and Peetem agree that the book of Revelation was written. I doubt there's anyone out there who disagrees with that. The question here isn't whether it was written. The question is whether Peetem claimed it was written over a period of 400 years. And of course he did not. There's not really any reasonable dispute about that. Which means your dispute here is totally unreasonable. And as I said, it does raise some worries about interpretive abilities. And yet here you are, telling us that alone of all the ages, you have figured out what's going on in Revelation. It's something you might meditate on a bit, as Obi Wan Kenobi suggested awhile back. Interesting that you said you heard that a lot. Yes, I bet you do.

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic View of the 4 Horsemen, the 7 seals, etc.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:07 am 
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As I have already stated, I'm not getting in to it with anyone about this subject because I know the type and it's a waste of time.

And the discussion is not a waste to time to me not because I'm a pre-trib or post-trib or trinitarian or whatever someone thinks my particular point of view might be.

Now, I'm not a smart man but I'm fairly well-read on this subject because yes, it used to consume me too. And after reading volumes of books from various positions I came to this conclusion - if the world were to end in an hour, today, tomorrow, next month, next year, 10 years, 20 years, or 200 years, none of that matters. I can't stop it because it is part of God's plan.

Jesus said his second coming will be like a thief in the night. So my job is to be prepared by how I live my life, not being able to identify the antichrist.

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic View of the 4 Horsemen, the 7 seals, etc.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:39 am 
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gherkin wrote:
Mel A Tonin wrote:
Quote:
I was discussing the style of writing known as "apocalyptic" as existing from 200BC to 200AD. I was not saying that the book of Revelation was written over that time period.

You did? Please big guy, this is what you said...
Quote:
It was written[/b] using apocalyptic language popular from about 200 BC to 200 AD

I am fairly sure that you and Peetem agree that the book of Revelation was written. I doubt there's anyone out there who disagrees with that. The question here isn't whether it was written. The question is whether Peetem claimed it was written over a period of 400 years. And of course he did not. There's not really any reasonable dispute about that. Which means your dispute here is totally unreasonable. And as I said, it does raise some worries about interpretive abilities. And yet here you are, telling us that alone of all the ages, you have figured out what's going on in Revelation. It's something you might meditate on a bit, as Obi Wan Kenobi suggested awhile back. Interesting that you said you heard that a lot. Yes, I bet you do.


Thank you Gherkin.

For the life of me I have no idea how any reasonable person could think that what I wrote implied that the book of Revelation was written over 400 years. But to clarify one last time - I was speaking to the genre of writing (e.g., "apocalyptic") as popular from 200BC to 200AD; not the book itself.

For reference see - https://www.britannica.com/art/apocalyptic-literature The link gives dates which differ slightly from mine, but are mostly aligned.

I may be dumb but I'm not stupid.

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic View of the 4 Horsemen, the 7 seals, etc.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:51 am 
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Another good book on the subject (read this one too):

https://www.amazon.com/Lambs-Supper-Mass-Heaven-Earth/dp/0385496591/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=the+lambs+supper&qid=1592833769&sr=8-1

I'm not 100% sold on Hahn's point of view and conclusions, but must admit he makes a good case (and given other Church Father's are aligned, more than a casual interpretation.)

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic View of the 4 Horsemen, the 7 seals, etc.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:50 am 
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Hahn is a preterist, isn't he? I didn't think there was a lot of support for that in the Fathers.

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic View of the 4 Horsemen, the 7 seals, etc.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:52 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Hahn is a preterist, isn't he? I didn't think there was a lot of support for that in the Fathers.


On this I should have clarified - Hahn's book discusses much, but the idea that the book of Revelation is a reflection of the Mass on one level is supported by some of the Fathers....of that I think he makes a good case (although far from perfect). As to Hahn's positions on other subjects, well, let's just say that his 4th cup theory is whacky IMHO. But I never got the idea he was preterit....missed that. He discussed that Revelation has many "levels" that go deep.

I should also add that absolutely 100% yes, Revelation has much about events yet to occur. But much of it is also concerned with events in the first years after the resurrection too.

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic View of the 4 Horsemen, the 7 seals, etc.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:28 pm 
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According to Strong's...
A seal is, "that by which anything is confirmed, proved, authenticated, as by a seal (a token or proof)

According to Vines...
Literal, a "seal" on a book or roll, combining with the ideas of security and destination those of secrecy and postponement of disclosures.

According to the Preterist and Historical view, it takes 2,000 years for the scroll to open defeating the entire purpose of them even being called a seal. You guys need to realize a few things.

The seals don't open slowly or over a long period of time and didn't begin opening centuries ago. There's a specific purpose of these four horsemen. Horses imply swiftnesss meaning when they pass, they pass in a short period of time. The duration between seals is 5-7 years. They give us the sequential 'opening signs' of the end-times and parallel the times Jesus mentioned in Mathew 24:3-10. They're like a slow rising curtain with four significant, identifiable people, and four significant, identifiable events and conditions that open and pass fairly quick, showing us the tribulation and the man of sin are coming soon, and so is the return of Christ. Each seal has 'identification marks' which when 'authenticated' - the seal is no longer a secret. The next few years, maybe the next 3-4 months, will tell me if my interpretation is correct.

I can give you examples of this if you like.

Another thing to realize is prophecy is of no private interpretation. I'm realizing that Catholics typically believe what other notable Catholics have written about Revelation and Mathew 24, etc. There's nothing wrong with that but if you are searching for the truth on prophecy, realize that no one person has it all correct, so you have to venture out and dig away at it. I haven't read a book on the last days in about 25 years. I know the many contrasting opinions of mainstream Protestantism and I believe 80% of it is bogus.


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 Post subject: Re: Catholic View of the 4 Horsemen, the 7 seals, etc.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:34 pm 
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Mel A Tonin wrote:
According to Strong's...
A seal is, "that by which anything is confirmed, proved, authenticated, as by a seal (a token or proof)

According to Vines...
Literal, a "seal" on a book or roll, combining with the ideas of security and destination those of secrecy and postponement of disclosures.

According to the Preterist and Historical view, it takes 2,000 years for the scroll to open defeating the entire purpose of them even being called a seal. You guys need to realize a few things.

The seals don't open slowly or over a long period of time and didn't begin opening centuries ago. There's a specific purpose of these four horsemen. Horses imply swiftnesss meaning when they pass, they pass in a short period of time. The duration between seals is 5-7 years. They give us the sequential 'opening signs' of the end-times and parallel the times Jesus mentioned in Mathew 24:3-10. They're like a slow rising curtain with four significant, identifiable people, and four significant, identifiable events and conditions that open and pass fairly quick, showing us the tribulation and the man of sin are coming soon, and so is the return of Christ. Each seal has 'identification marks' which when 'authenticated' - the seal is no longer a secret. The next few years, maybe the next 3-4 months, will tell me if my interpretation is correct.

I can give you examples of this if you like.

Another thing to realize is prophecy is of no private interpretation. I'm realizing that Catholics typically believe what other notable Catholics have written about Revelation and Mathew 24, etc. There's nothing wrong with that but if you are searching for the truth on prophecy, realize that no one person has it all correct, so you have to venture out and dig away at it. I haven't read a book on the last days in about 25 years. I know the many contrasting opinions of mainstream Protestantism and I believe 80% of it is bogus.


Thanks.

As I have stated, the world might be coming to a close in the next month or In 3 to 4 months, it doesn’t matter to me.

My job is to stay ready always by living a life of virtue, receiving the sacraments, knowing the Lord, loving Jesus and loving my neighbor.

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