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 Post subject: Should Catholicism make you feel bad?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 9:44 pm 
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Sons of Thunder
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From Young Sheldon, he investigating other religions.

Tam:... And sometimes we confess our sins to a priest
Sheldon: I don't have any sins
Tam: Then you have the sin of pride
Sheldon: Your religion is making me feel bad
Tam: That's how you know it's working.

Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Should Catholicism make you feel bad?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:56 am 
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A standard secular caricature of religion.

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 Post subject: Re: Should Catholicism make you feel bad?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:52 am 
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Sons of Thunder
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Well, pretty much how religion is dealt with is the standard secular caricature (which does fit some fundamentalists, I think). Anyway, isn't there some truth in that last statement?

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Should Catholicism make you feel bad?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:12 am 
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You should feel bad when you sin

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 Post subject: Re: Should Catholicism make you feel bad?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:06 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
You should feel bad when you sin


Which for most people is often.

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 Post subject: Re: Should Catholicism make you feel bad?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:24 pm 
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But as the topic in general....

We believe in an omniscient, omnipresent, loving, perfect triune God who is offended by sin. He created man and allowed him to fall, thus bringing damnation on all. In addition, we are left with the scars of that sin, giving us a proclivity to sin and further offend Him. Most thankfully, because of His great love, He gave us a Savior, His Church & the sacraments, as a means to bring us salvation. However, He allows most people to reject the Church and her sacraments and are thus, damned.

So, taken from this perspective and armed with this knowledge, why wouldn't we expect Catholicism to make us feel bad, most people are damned despite God's attempt to prevent it?

Mind you, I don't necessarily agree with this. But, from a worldly point of view, one can see how non-Catholics might view things.

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 Post subject: Re: Should Catholicism make you feel bad?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:35 pm 
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Training is my business and I have two advanced degrees.

There are three realms of human learning:

Cognitive, which is thinking, math, language -- "book learning."

Psycho-Motor -- throwing a ball, riding a bicycle, etc.

Affective -- values and attitudes.

No one would claim you can use a cognitive strategy to tech a psychomotor skill -- you can't become a champion pitcher just by reading a book. And you can't teach a cognitive skill with a psychomotor strategy -- you can't learn calculus by shooting hoops.

So no one should be surprised that you can't use a cognitive strategy to achieve an affective objective. You have to use an affective strategy -- status, pride, shame and so on. If you want better behavior from people, you should arrange things so they feel pride when they do right and shame when they do wrong. The Church has known this for millennia.


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 Post subject: Re: Should Catholicism make you feel bad?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:59 pm 
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Vern Humphrey wrote:
Training is my business and I have two advanced degrees.

There are three realms of human learning:

Cognitive, which is thinking, math, language -- "book learning."

Psycho-Motor -- throwing a ball, riding a bicycle, etc.

Affective -- values and attitudes.

No one would claim you can use a cognitive strategy to tech a psychomotor skill -- you can't become a champion pitcher just by reading a book. And you can't teach a cognitive skill with a psychomotor strategy -- you can't learn calculus by shooting hoops.

So no one should be surprised that you can't use a cognitive strategy to achieve an affective objective. You have to use an affective strategy -- status, pride, shame and so on. If you want better behavior from people, you should arrange things so they feel pride when they do right and shame when they do wrong. The Church has known this for millennia.

DUH! :shock:

What an epiphany! I’ve done teaching and training for decades and also hold a post-graduate degree. I know all about visual, auditory, and kinesthetic learning, yet I’ve never seen this explanation before. It’s so simple, yet so profound, and absolutely dead-on right. You, dear Vern, are a genius. :salut:

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 Post subject: Re: Should Catholicism make you feel bad?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2021 4:33 pm 
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Sins should be deeply regretted and inspire a firm purpose of ammendment, but there should be wonder, amazement and joy at the unfathomable depths of the mercy God offers us when we repent. Our faith gives us the ability to be happy rather than wallow in pain at our sorrow for our sins.

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 Post subject: Re: Should Catholicism make you feel bad?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2021 5:15 pm 
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Mrs. Timmy wrote:
Vern Humphrey wrote:
Training is my business and I have two advanced degrees.

There are three realms of human learning:

Cognitive, which is thinking, math, language -- "book learning."

Psycho-Motor -- throwing a ball, riding a bicycle, etc.

Affective -- values and attitudes.

No one would claim you can use a cognitive strategy to tech a psychomotor skill -- you can't become a champion pitcher just by reading a book. And you can't teach a cognitive skill with a psychomotor strategy -- you can't learn calculus by shooting hoops.

So no one should be surprised that you can't use a cognitive strategy to achieve an affective objective. You have to use an affective strategy -- status, pride, shame and so on. If you want better behavior from people, you should arrange things so they feel pride when they do right and shame when they do wrong. The Church has known this for millennia.

DUH! :shock:

What an epiphany! I’ve done teaching and training for decades and also hold a post-graduate degree. I know all about visual, auditory, and kinesthetic learning, yet I’ve never seen this explanation before. It’s so simple, yet so profound, and absolutely dead-on right. You, dear Vern, are a genius. :salut:

Thank you. :oops:


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 Post subject: Re: Should Catholicism make you feel bad?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2021 5:15 pm 
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Zeno wrote:
Sins should be deeply regretted and inspire a firm purpose of ammendment, but there should be wonder, amazement and joy at the unfathomable depths of the mercy God offers us when we repent. Our faith gives us the ability to be happy rather than wallow in pain at our sorrow for our sins.

Yes, but there is also redemptive value in suffering.

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 Post subject: Re: Should Catholicism make you feel bad?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2021 5:29 pm 
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Quote:
you can't become a champion pitcher just by reading a book.
Great. Now you tell me.

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 Post subject: Re: Should Catholicism make you feel bad?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2021 8:56 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Zeno wrote:
Sins should be deeply regretted and inspire a firm purpose of ammendment, but there should be wonder, amazement and joy at the unfathomable depths of the mercy God offers us when we repent. Our faith gives us the ability to be happy rather than wallow in pain at our sorrow for our sins.

Yes, but there is also redemptive value in suffering.


That doesn't have anything to do with this point. Knowing we have done wrong doesn't mean that faith causes pain and sadness. God's mercy allows us to not dwell in sadness and pain because of our sins. That doesn't mean there aren't plenty of other opportunities in life to suffer, or take the value out of suffering.

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 Post subject: Re: Should Catholicism make you feel bad?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2021 6:39 am 
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Zeno wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
Zeno wrote:
Sins should be deeply regretted and inspire a firm purpose of ammendment, but there should be wonder, amazement and joy at the unfathomable depths of the mercy God offers us when we repent. Our faith gives us the ability to be happy rather than wallow in pain at our sorrow for our sins.

Yes, but there is also redemptive value in suffering.


That doesn't have anything to do with this point. Knowing we have done wrong doesn't mean that faith causes pain and sadness. God's mercy allows us to not dwell in sadness and pain because of our sins. That doesn't mean there aren't plenty of other opportunities in life to suffer, or take the value out of suffering.


So true....thank you!


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 Post subject: Re: Should Catholicism make you feel bad?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2021 8:01 am 
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Zeno wrote:
That doesn't have anything to do with this point. Knowing we have done wrong doesn't mean that faith causes pain and sadness.

On the contrary, feeling sorrow, pain, and sadness over our sins is a good thing if it leads to repentance. St. John Fisher talks eloquently about the gift of tears and why we should pray to receive it.

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 Post subject: Re: Should Catholicism make you feel bad?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2021 12:46 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Zeno wrote:
That doesn't have anything to do with this point. Knowing we have done wrong doesn't mean that faith causes pain and sadness.

On the contrary, feeling sorrow, pain, and sadness over our sins is a good thing if it leads to repentance. St. John Fisher talks eloquently about the gift of tears and why we should pray to receive it.

Yes, leads to repentance but don't stop there. We also know there is forgiveness and mercy which is a cause for joy. To the original question (should Catholicism make you feel bad) the answer is no. Without faith knowledge of one's sins and shortcomings causes pain. The end. But in the light of faith we can accept forgiveness and move away from the pain to joyful thanksgiving and awe of God's mercy.

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 Post subject: Re: Should Catholicism make you feel bad?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2021 5:27 pm 
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Did anyone notice the Collect from today's Mass was exactly on this point?

Quote:
O God, author of every mercy and of all goodness, who in fasting, prayer and almsgiving have shown us a remedy for sin, look graciously on this confession of our lowliness, that we, who are bowed down by our conscience, may always be lifted up by your mercy. Through our Lord Jesus Christ, your Son, who lives and reigns with you in the unity of the Holy Spirit, God, for ever and ever.



emphasis mine

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 Post subject: Re: Should Catholicism make you feel bad?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:24 am 
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I have a tendency of going from pain to joy rather quickly. But then, I end up feeling bad for not feeling more crummy about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Should Catholicism make you feel bad?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 12:56 pm 
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I think the point should be that through sin, you make YOURSELF feel bad. And that's as it should be -- you should be ashamed of your sins.

The Church, offering forgiveness, restores your happiness.


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 Post subject: Re: Should Catholicism make you feel bad?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:10 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
A standard secular caricature of religion.


Guess you have never been a Fundamentalist, eh Father? 45 minutes of preaching telling you how rotten you are and how rotten the world is and how rotten every other denomination but yours is -- then an "Altar Call" to "get right with Jaaaaaaazuzu!"

Guilt on steroids.


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