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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:44 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Denise, I don't think you realize the implications of the argument you're making here. If all of humanity deserves Heaven, why did Jesus have to come save us? We didn't have anything to be saved from. At best, His mission is this-worldly only, offering us comfort in sorrow here and exhorting us to lead good lives--none of which needed His passion, death and resurrection. Your position pushes Jesus out of the picture.

At least among most modern advocates of universalism or hopeful universalism, the argument is that the Redemption is made universal. Your argument does away with the need for redemption at all.

Obi, I didn’t say that “all of humanity deserves Heaven”, nor do I think it.

So the implications of the argument you have wrongly attributed to me are not the implications of my argument.


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:23 pm 
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Ok. So you don't think that everyone deserves Heaven nor that everyone deserves Hell. What do you think?

That's a real question, BTW, not a gotcha.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:20 pm 
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I believe that God's love for us is unconditional.


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:25 pm 
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That doesn't help with the question at hand. The original question is:

"Is Hell the natural fate of man?" You seem averse to the idea, so I assume you think that the answer is, "No." You have disavowed the proposition that Heaven is the natural state of man. I suspect that you would not like the idea that the natural fate of some is Heaven and the natural fate of others is Hell. I don't know what's left.

Do you think that there is no such thing as a natural fate of man?

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:42 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Ok. So you don't think that everyone deserves Heaven nor that everyone deserves Hell. What do you think?

That's a real question, BTW, not a gotcha.

I don't think anyone deserves eternal Heaven and I don't think anyone deserves eternal Hell.

I don't think God's unconditional love for us has anything to do with deserving or not deserving.


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:44 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
That doesn't help with the question at hand. The original question is:

"Is Hell the natural fate of man?" You seem averse to the idea, so I assume you think that the answer is, "No." You have disavowed the proposition that Heaven is the natural state of man. I suspect that you would not like the idea that the natural fate of some is Heaven and the natural fate of others is Hell. I don't know what's left.

Do you think that there is no such thing as a natural fate of man?

I'm very wary of answering a question with the word "fate" in it. What you mean by "fate" may not be what somebody else thinks "fate" means.

And then when you put the word "natural" before it, even more difficult to understand. Is there such a thing as an unnatural fate? I honestly don't know what "natural fate" is supposed to mean.


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:50 pm 
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The word natural is used in opposition to supernatural, ie without grace.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 4:25 pm 
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In that case, I believe confusion and ignorance and suffering are the inevitable fate of man without God's grace, which could be described as hell but it's not an inescapable hell, because God's grace is always available, so it's more like purgatory than inescapable eternal hell.

We could imagine that without God's grace it would be inescapable eternal hell, but that's just imagination, because the reality is that God's grace is always available to everyone, God never abandons us.


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 4:48 pm 
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Hell is eternal exclusion from the Beatific Vision. If you don't believe that's what happens without grace, then you've just made Jesus unnecessary again.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:33 pm 
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This, by the way, is the Achille's heel of many (not all) theories of universal salvation, starting with Origen (and maybe before) and continuing to the present: It's just not clear what, if anything, Jesus does for anyone.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:22 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Hell is eternal exclusion from the Beatific Vision. If you don't believe that's what happens without grace, then you've just made Jesus unnecessary again.

But I said the opposite of what you have implied I "don't believe". :scratch:


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:27 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
This, by the way, is the Achille's heel of many (not all) theories of universal salvation, starting with Origen (and maybe before) and continuing to the present: It's just not clear what, if anything, Jesus does for anyone.


Amazing grace
How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me
I once was lost
But now I'm found
Was blind, but now I see
'Twas grace that taught
My heart to fear
And grace my Fears relieved
How precious did
That grace appear
The hour I first believed
Through many dangers
Toils and snares
We have already come
'Twas grace hath brought
Us safe thus far
And grace will lead us home


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:38 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
This, by the way, is the Achille's heel of many (not all) theories of universal salvation, starting with Origen (and maybe before) and continuing to the present: It's just not clear what, if anything, Jesus does for anyone.

It's only a difficulty if you rigidly believe that at the moment when a person dies, it is instantly decided that they go straight to Heaven or straight to Hell, instant everlasting bliss in Heaven or absolutely inescapable everlasting suffering in Hell.

But there is no reason to believe such a simplistic rigid belief. Nobody knows exactly what happens when a person dies. There is no reason to believe that God's love and mercy and forgiveness and understanding and kindness and grace come to an end for many people at the moment of death.

The Catholic Church teaches that there is a place called purgatory after death. It's not Heaven and it's not eternal Hell. But what exactly is purgatory? What happens there? How? Does anyone claim to know?

The Church teaches that nobody in purgatory goes to Hell, everyone eventually goes to Heaven. But that's what universalists believe! The only difference is that universalists believe that's what happens for everyone, not just for everyone in purgatory.


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:15 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
This, by the way, is the Achille's heel of many (not all) theories of universal salvation, starting with Origen (and maybe before) and continuing to the present: It's just not clear what, if anything, Jesus does for anyone.

It's only a difficulty if you rigidly believe that when a person dies, it is instantly decided that they go straight to Heaven or straight to Hell, instant everlasting bliss in Heaven or absolutely inescapable everlasting suffering in Hell.

But there is no reason to believe such a simplistic rigid belief. Nobody knows exactly what happens when a person dies. There is no reason to believe that God's love and mercy and forgiveness and understanding and kindness and grace come to an end for many people at the moment of death.

The Catholic Church teaches that there is a place called purgatory after death. It's not Heaven and it's not eternal Hell. But what exactly is purgatory? What happens there? How? Does anyone claim to know?

The Church teaches that nobody in purgatory goes to Hell, everyone eventually goes to Heaven. But that's what universalists believe! The only difference is that universalists believe that's what happens for everyone, not just for everyone in purgatory.


The fact that you don’t believe that immediately upon death we are bound for Hell or Heaven (many via purgatory) demonstrates that you don’t know the Catholic faith.

The understanding that we are immediately judged at death is a dogma of the faith and not debatable.

Lastly, you quoted the hymn “Amazing Grace”. I’m not sure the point. However, you would do well to understand just where that “amazing grace” originates; in Jesus Christ by His redeeming death and resurrection.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:38 am 
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Peetem wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
This, by the way, is the Achille's heel of many (not all) theories of universal salvation, starting with Origen (and maybe before) and continuing to the present: It's just not clear what, if anything, Jesus does for anyone.

It's only a difficulty if you rigidly believe that when a person dies, it is instantly decided that they go straight to Heaven or straight to Hell, instant everlasting bliss in Heaven or absolutely inescapable everlasting suffering in Hell.

But there is no reason to believe such a simplistic rigid belief. Nobody knows exactly what happens when a person dies. There is no reason to believe that God's love and mercy and forgiveness and understanding and kindness and grace come to an end for many people at the moment of death.

The Catholic Church teaches that there is a place called purgatory after death. It's not Heaven and it's not eternal Hell. But what exactly is purgatory? What happens there? How? Does anyone claim to know?

The Church teaches that nobody in purgatory goes to Hell, everyone eventually goes to Heaven. But that's what universalists believe! The only difference is that universalists believe that's what happens for everyone, not just for everyone in purgatory.


The fact that you don’t believe that immediately upon death we are bound for Hell or Heaven (many via purgatory) demonstrates that you don’t know the Catholic faith.

The understanding that we are immediately judged at death is a dogma of the faith and not debatable.

You have misrepresented what I have said Peteem. This happens a lot on this message board, and I don't understand why it happens so much.

I said it's "only a difficulty if you rigidly believe that when a person dies, it is instantly decided that they go straight to Heaven or straight to Hell".

I didn't say it's only a difficulty if you rigidly believe that when a person dies, it is instantly decided that they are "bound for Hell or Heaven (many via purgatory)".

There is a very clear and obvious difference between going "straight to Heaven or straight to Hell" and being "bound for Hell or Heaven (many via purgatory)". But you have failed to notice the difference, Peteem.

The whole point is that nobody knows exactly what happens when we die. If we don't go straight to Heaven or straight to Hell, then what happens, where do we go, what do we do there, what happens there, do you know? Have you got some simplistic idea about it, or have you really thought about it?


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:28 am 
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What you don't take into account is this: that Jesus taught eternal hell.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:31 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
In that case, I believe confusion and ignorance and suffering are the inevitable fate of man without God's grace, which could be described as hell but it's not an inescapable hell, because God's grace is always available, so it's more like purgatory than inescapable eternal hell.


Are you suggesting that God's grace is necessarily irresistible?

Because the manifest prevalence of human behavior towards egocentrism and the capability of humans to release evil and malevolence onto the world suggests the exact opposite.

And if grace is irresistible, then it wouldn't be grace, it would be mind control. And it would make God into a tyrant instead of a lover.

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We could imagine that without God's grace it would be inescapable eternal hell, but that's just imagination, because the reality is that God's grace is always available to everyone, God never abandons us.


I can definitely argue that it's equally imaginative to assume that simply because a gift is made available that people necessarily avail themselves of it.

Even more so that because people perceive the gift as being a curse, and for them a sign and symbol of foreseeable series of constraints on their own desires, passions, and preoccupations, so that they do their utmost to spurn or at least avoid it altogether.

Just because God doesn't abandon us it doesn't follow at all that we cannot abandon God.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:57 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
What you don't take into account is this: that Jesus taught eternal hell.

Let's keep this simple. Show me one instance, the clearest instance or one of the clearest instances in the Bible where "Jesus taught eternal Hell".


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:16 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Hell is eternal exclusion from the Beatific Vision. If you don't believe that's what happens without grace, then you've just made Jesus unnecessary again.

But I said the opposite of what you have implied I "don't believe". :scratch:

Denise Dee wrote:
I believe confusion and ignorance and suffering are the inevitable fate of man without God's grace, which could be described as hell but it's not an inescapable hell, because God's grace is always available, so it's more like purgatory than inescapable eternal hell.

Pick one.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:03 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Let's keep this simple. Show me one instance, the clearest instance or one of the clearest instances in the Bible where "Jesus taught eternal Hell".


Matthew 25:41&46
"Then he will say to those at his left hand, "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels....And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

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