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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:18 am 
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so they, like you, choose not to believe in the very Catholic teaching that hell is real .... and that the world should become unitarian in make-up

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 6:21 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
faithfulservant wrote:
God loves us so much that He allows us to make the choice to love Him or not ... some do, most don't for one reason or another

God loves us so much that He allows us to make the choice to love Him or be punished without mercy for ever and ever. Do you really think that could be described as love in any sense of the word? It's an Orwellian reversal of the meaning of love. It's absurd.

It's like bringing children to the edge of a cliff and saying to them "I love you so much that I am allowing you to walk to the safety of my arms or walk over the edge of the cliff". And when some children fall over the cliff edge, you say "That happened because I love my children so much that I allowed them the freedom to suffer the consequences of falling over the cliff.

It's not just me who finds such arguments absurd, most people have rejected the absurdity of trying to reconcile the obvious contradiction of eternal punishment and God's supreme love.


The more that you keep using really bad analogies like these the more you're demonstrate that you're really not just accidentally misconstruing the doctrine, but rather are purposefully and intentionally engaging in intellectual dishonesty.

For starters God's supreme love is based on the very freedom that you implicitly reject in analogies like this. To satisfy your rather shallow view of "supreme love"(which appears to have not the highest objective good of the beloved in mind as much as just to satisfy your feeling of uncritical empathy), to you make it so that God has to "save" people who don't want to be saved, who hate God and everything that He stands for.

Secondly, it's not "like bringing children to the edge of a cliff"....rather that it's more like them wanting to run off the cliff to be free from God .

Damnation isn't something that just "happens" to you, you choose it, you will it with every choice that you make that you know that you ought not do something yet you do it anyway, or that choice you make to not do something that you ought. Every day people like you and me release untold amounts of evil and malevolence out into the world.

God's supreme love was the very same love that allowed His Son to freely take upon Himself a horrific and agonizing torture, abuse, and a humiliating death from asphixiation while hanging naked from a cross. So you really need to reconsider what is meant by God's supreme love, because according to your "version" Christ would have never come and nobody would have been redeemed.


And the only reason why moderns such as yourself find the arguments for hell so "absurd" is not because the arguments are actually absurd(as in that they possess actual internal contradictions, because they don't), its because your conscious and unconscious selves are so disjointed and disconnected that you believe that you're consciously morally "good," yet you're so detached from all of the unconscious evil you manifest in your actions you don't believe that you should be responsible for them. It's a lack of integrity that obscures your vision, not the argument itself.

As Karl Jung stated: "Unconscious evil and poor decisions will, to the ignorant and unintegrated, manifest itself in the world as fate."

This simple statement alone goes a long way in explaning many of your deficiencies and incapabilities in not grasping the essential truth of the existence of hell.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:13 pm 
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Who in their right minds would “choose damnation”? ::):


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:18 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Who in their right minds would “choose damnation”? ::):


That's the whole point.

None of us our in our "right minds".

You're kidding yourself if you believe that you are.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:21 pm 
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Gandalf the Grey wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Who in their right minds would “choose damnation”? ::):


That's the whole point.

None of us our in our "right minds".

You're kidding yourself if you believe that you are.

So God only punishes people who are not in their right minds to make a right decision?


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:23 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Gandalf the Grey wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Who in their right minds would “choose damnation”? ::):


That's the whole point.

None of us our in our "right minds".

You're kidding yourself if you believe that you are.

So God only punishes people who are not in their right minds to make a right decision?


No.

You're engaging in a strawman fallacy.

Try again.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:27 pm 
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Gandalf the Grey wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Gandalf the Grey wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Who in their right minds would “choose damnation”? ::):


That's the whole point.

None of us our in our "right minds".

You're kidding yourself if you believe that you are.

So God only punishes people who are not in their right minds to make a right decision?


No.

You're engaging in a strawman fallacy.

Try again.

Who in their right minds would choose eternal damnation? You would have to be insane to choose eternal damnation. Which part of that do you not understand, Gandalf?


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:42 pm 
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Drug addicts are not in their right minds because the drugs cause that condition. But they're still responsible for the fact that they knew that they should have never abused those drugs to begin with. They themselves are the cause of their drug-addled condition and their addiction and "wrong-mindedness" is the punishment of their own choice.

Sin is it's own punishment. God doesn't take his proverbial"pound of flesh" when we sin, He has neither the personal interest nor the desire to get personal retribution. God's nowhere near so petty or self-concerned. What God does in regards to His justice is either allow you to experience the full weight of punishment for the sin you committed, or to protect you from it in some degree in order to redirect to towards repentance. If you don't repent, He then allows greater and greater catastrophe to happen as a result of your sins until you realize that your sins are the very thing causing you the catastrophes you're experiencing.

If you still don't get the message and die an unrepentant and wasted individual, then the only thing left is to give you what you wanted.



As an analogy God is like a dam protecting a city who through their own evil and malevolence continually filling a reservoir, and in turn He only allows them to experience enough of the consequences of their own malevolence to wake them up out of their own arrogance and complacency.

If God were to really release all of the untold amounts of evil and malevolence that we unleash onto the world on a daily basis right now, we'd experience a literal hell on earth. And we'd all be getting exactly what we deserve.



We are all sin-addicts. It's the sin, even the smallest sins, that we choose which punishes us.

The punishment of hell is(apart from primarily separation from God) is the full weight of the sin you actively and positively sought in your addiction to it as an end in itself. It's God giving you to the fullest exactly what you wanted: life without God.

Except there is no such thing as a life without God, just as absurd as claiming that you could have sunlight without the sun.

And your question is itself indicative of just how weak your grasp of the issue really is, that you've never really plumbed the depths of this issue at all. Because if you had there's no way that you'd argue what you're arguing.

One of the primary teachings that the Gospel hammers into your head is that, compared to God, you're not "good" at all, not in the least. Which is precisely the reason why we needed a Savior. And even after accepting the cure for our disease there is still the decades long work of rehabilitation, spiritual warfare, and re-orienting our habits and perspective and conforming ourselves to the person of Christ.

Rejecting all of that, and resting on the presumption that "I'm good just as I am"....is nothing short of spiritual suicide.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:56 pm 
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This is not correct. God does punish.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:03 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
This is not correct. God does punish.


I agree, God does punish. But the punishment that God mediates isn't based on anything arbitrary like to our version of civil/positive law where the punishment is something completely disconnected from the crime. God's way of punishment is something subtle and profound, something always fitting and suitable to the crime.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:36 pm 
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What was subtle about the Flood? What was subtle about raining fire and brimstone down on Sodom and Gomorrah?

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:50 pm 
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To cut to the chase: the theory you propound in your posts is extremely speculative at best and would not be accepted by most theologians. You are cutting God down to a size you can understand and accept. Your size may be bigger than Denise's. It's still wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 6:04 pm 
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What I am objecting to is the principle that God's punishment is simply letting the sinner experience the normal temporal effects of his sin. God's punishments are always just, and in that sense they are proportionate, but they are in no wise limited in the way you seem to be making them out to be.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 6:34 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
To cut to the chase: the theory you propound in your posts is extremely speculative at best and would not be accepted by most theologians. You are cutting God down to a size you can understand and accept. Your size may be bigger than Denise's. It's still wrong.

What's small about God's infinite mercy and infinite love?


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:55 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
To cut to the chase: the theory you propound in your posts is extremely speculative at best and would not be accepted by most theologians. You are cutting God down to a size you can understand and accept. Your size may be bigger than Denise's. It's still wrong.

What's small about God's infinite mercy and infinite love?

Or His infinite justice?

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:09 am 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
To cut to the chase: the theory you propound in your posts is extremely speculative at best and would not be accepted by most theologians. You are cutting God down to a size you can understand and accept. Your size may be bigger than Denise's. It's still wrong.

What's small about God's infinite mercy and infinite love?

Or His infinite justice?

What’s your point about “His infinite justice”, PED?

Signum and Doom, and apparently Obi and jack3, think we all deserve to suffer in Hell for ever. Do you think you deserve to suffer in Hell for ever, PED?

Doesn’t justice mean getting what we deserve?

You hope to avoid eternal damnation, PED, and spend eternity in Heaven, because of “His infinite justice” or despite “His infinite justice”?

If it’s because of “His infinite justice”, explain where’s the justice in you spending eternity in Heaven while so many other people (according to your belief) are suffering for ever in Hell?

If it’s despite “His infinite justice”, then why wouldn’t it be the same for everyone else? Why would you imagine that God’s justice will apply to all the many whom you believe end up in Hell but won’t apply to you and the few you believe won’t spend eternity in Hell?


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:58 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Signum and Doom, and apparently Obi and jack3, think we all deserve to suffer in Hell for ever.


You need to just stop mis-characterizing what we believe. This is a warning.


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:32 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
To cut to the chase: the theory you propound in your posts is extremely speculative at best and would not be accepted by most theologians. You are cutting God down to a size you can understand and accept. Your size may be bigger than Denise's. It's still wrong.

What's small about God's infinite mercy and infinite love?

Or His infinite justice?

What’s your point about “His infinite justice”, PED?

Signum and Doom, and apparently Obi and jack3, think we all deserve to suffer in Hell for ever. Do you think you deserve to suffer in Hell for ever, PED?

Doesn’t justice mean getting what we deserve?

You hope to avoid eternal damnation, PED, and spend eternity in Heaven, because of “His infinite justice” or despite “His infinite justice”?

If it’s because of “His infinite justice”, explain where’s the justice in you spending eternity in Heaven while so many other people (according to your belief) are suffering for ever in Hell?

If it’s despite “His infinite justice”, then why wouldn’t it be the same for everyone else? Why would you imagine that God’s justice will apply to all the many whom you believe end up in Hell but won’t apply to you and the few you believe won’t spend eternity in Hell?



Just because hell is the natural fate of man it doesn't follow that it's something that humanity deserves, just like it doesn't follow that heaven is something that humanity deserves.

We all have a choice to make, either for or against God, to accept the cure for our natural condition (which is our attachment to sin and it's wages, which is death), or reject it(and thus incur the just penalty for our rejection, which is hell).

Nothing is owed us by God. And we have to accept His gifts fully and with open arms and hearts for them to actually bear the fruit that they were intended, or else we waste the gift.

And Christ makes it clear that the gifts we waste come with a penalty.

If you give your child a gift and they smash it, burn it, and toss away the remains, and spit in your face and then insist that it was your fault that they behaved so, do you just insist that it's just "okay" and proceed to give them another?

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:40 am 
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Denise, I don't think you realize the implications of the argument you're making here. If all of humanity deserves Heaven, why did Jesus have to come save us? We didn't have anything to be saved from. At best, His mission is this-worldly only, offering us comfort in sorrow here and exhorting us to lead good lives--none of which needed His passion, death and resurrection. Your position pushes Jesus out of the picture.

At least among most modern advocates of universalism or hopeful universalism, the argument is that the Redemption is made universal. Your argument does away with the need for redemption at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:40 am 
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Gandalf the Grey wrote:
Just because hell is the natural fate of man it doesn't follow that it's something that humanity deserves, just like it doesn't follow that heaven is something that humanity deserves.

So God sends people to Hell unfairly? I don't think that's an argument you want to make.

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