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Bishop Barron on Ben Shapiro's show.... Salvation
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Author:  Obi-Wan Kenobi [ Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bishop Barron on Ben Shapiro's show.... Salvation

Yes, in fact, He does. Those who fall away from Him face the real danger of Hell. He would rather win us over by love, and fear of Hell is not very effective as a long-term motivator (it leads to despair and indifference), but nevertheless it is a reality.

Author:  Jack3 [ Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bishop Barron on Ben Shapiro's show.... Salvation

In my first post about this that fear I'm referring to is "not incompatible with hope, love and joy". I think that clarifies things for you. I am not spending sleepless nights fearing I'll be damned. I can understand how ardent and how sincere your words are. I invite you to understand where I'm coming from too - As I see it, fear is spoken of with approval in the Bible, Catechisms (both the Roman and the CCC) and Liturgies (both Roman and Syro Malabar) [as is joy, hope and love]. Personally, fear works in tandem with other factors to make me a better person.

ETA This post is addressed to theJack. Fr Kenobi's post came before this because I was taking time to articulate myself.

Author:  Obi-Wan Kenobi [ Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bishop Barron on Ben Shapiro's show.... Salvation

Unbalanced fear of God leads to scrupulosity; an imbalance in the other direction leads to presumption. Both are serious spiritual ills.

Author:  Obi-Wan Kenobi [ Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bishop Barron on Ben Shapiro's show.... Salvation

One of the versions of the Act of Contrition goes like this:

    O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee, and I detest all of my sins because I dread the loss of Heaven and the pains of Hell, but most of all because they have offended Thee, my God, Who are all good and worthy of all my love. I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to sin no more and to avoid the near occasions of sin.

The first and lower motive for sorrow is the fear of punishment (some versions say "because of Thy just punishments"). This is known as "imperfect contrition" or "attrition," and God accepts sorrow on that basis. The second motive is sorrow for having offended someone we love, which is known as "perfect contrition." Perfect contrition is desirable, and I recall having read (but cannot document at the moment) that the Scholastics believed that the Sacrament of Confession elevated attrition into contrition.

Author:  faithfulservant [ Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bishop Barron on Ben Shapiro's show.... Salvation

that's my favorite Act of Contrition :fyi:

Author:  Jack3 [ Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bishop Barron on Ben Shapiro's show.... Salvation

The official Malayalam act of contrition is similar; it ends with an additional sentence "I am prepared to die than to sin again".

Author:  theJack [ Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bishop Barron on Ben Shapiro's show.... Salvation

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Unbalanced fear of God leads to scrupulosity; an imbalance in the other direction leads to presumption. Both are serious spiritual ills.

Of course, it isn't presumptuous to believe exactly what God has promised. Indeed, it is faithlessness--apisteuo, the thing Jesus rebuked Thomas for. You say, I know, that God has not promised eternal life to those who have believed. To be fair, you use that language of your beliefs. You must, because that is the language of Scripture, of our Lord Himself. But as we have discussed many and many more times, you add condition upon condition that Jesus Himself did not add. And then, in adding these conditions, you encourage others to live in fear and tell them it is the sin of presumption to presume to, at least in my understanding of His words, to believe Jesus.

It is not an unbalanced fear that leads to scrupulosity. It is illegitimate fear that leads to scrupulosity. It is not an imbalance in the other direction that leads to presumption. It is claiming that God's children, though His children, are not subject to His loving discipline.

Jack3, once or twice a year I can't help myself and I end up making a post like this. And I suppose I'm getting it out of the way early this one. I meant what I said previously. I have absolutely no doubt about your sincerity or love of Christ. I don't know and wouldn't presume (pardon the pun) to comment on your existential state. I only say to you that I truly hope that, contrary to Obi's words (regardless of whatever his meaning) that you don't live in fear of our Father and of our Savior. I hope that you find yourself living in His grace, in His freedom, in the boundless joy of His unmerited favor. I hope you come to experience that such grace does not lead to presumption but motivates service. We love, after all, because He loved us; the more we see that love, that forgiveness, that absolutely free and unmerited forgiveness, the more greatly we love. All things you know, I know. I only hope you come to know them more deeply. I know Obi would pray the same for you as well, even if he would encourage you to know them from a different doctrinal perspective.

:cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9:

Author:  Obi-Wan Kenobi [ Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bishop Barron on Ben Shapiro's show.... Salvation

Quote:
But as we have discussed many and many more times, you add condition upon condition that Jesus Himself did not add. And then, in adding these conditions, you encourage others to live in fear and tell them it is the sin of presumption to presume to, at least in my understanding of His words, to believe Jesus.

And I, of course, would say that you omit things that Jesus most definitely did include. But, since (to your chagrin, I know) I dislike combative apologetics, I will leave it there.

Author:  theJack [ Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bishop Barron on Ben Shapiro's show.... Salvation

"Truly, truly, I say to you: whoever believes in Me has everlasting life."

Notice the period.

I don't care what other verses you bring in to have Jesus contradict Himself here. The logic is flawless. All A is B. You don't get to bring in other evidence that some A is not, in fact, B. ALL believers have everlasting life. ALL. ALL. And the life they HAVE -- not will have or might have or hope to have, but HAVE in the present moment -- is everlasting. It's not ten year life or ten minute life. It's everlasting, and if I have life in one moment and ten minutes later lose that life, then clearly I wasn't alive everlastingly, now was I?

It shouldn't be to my chagrin that you don't like these sorts of apologetics. It should be to the chagrin of those who believe as you do. This is the main argument I've made for years. You can dodge it all you like and raise other verses--you can say, "BUT WHAT ABOUT?!?!?!" all you like. The absolutely irrefutable fact is Jesus' promise that all who believe have everlasting life. You're conditions . . . He doesn't consider them. Not there.

Now, I believe. I have everlasting life. I therefore have no fear of Hell. You accuse me of presumption. I accuse you of faithlessness and disloyalty. I don't accuse you of being hellbound, so let's not pretend I'm making claims I'm not.

It is a shame you don't discuss these things . . . if you believe as strongly as you say I'm wrong, you do have a call to defend the flock. Banning is always an option, as is deleting posts like this. Or you could make your case so others see why you think we shouldn't believe Jesus' words as we actually have them.

And yes, I know I'm baiting you. I truly wish you would address this. After almost nine years, I figure eventually we'll finally get around to it.

Author:  Jack3 [ Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bishop Barron on Ben Shapiro's show.... Salvation

Fear of God is a gift of the Holy Spirit, and the beginning of knowledge. In the parable of the widow and the unjust judge, fear of God is placed on par with regard for man. As I have already said, as I see it, fear is spoken of with approval in the Bible, Catechisms (both the Roman and the CCC) and Liturgies (both Roman and Syro Malabar). I'll add spiritual-devotional literature, eg Introduction to Devout Life. For salvation we find Jesus speaking about Baptism, Eucharist, corporal works of mercy, wealth, etc. I believe the Catholic Church; I will go to Heaven if I die in a state of grace. I trust in the mercy of God. From what I have said in my previous posts it should be evident that you need not have fear (pardon the pun) about my life. Warm regards.

Author:  ThomisticCajunAggie [ Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bishop Barron on Ben Shapiro's show.... Salvation

I would agree that all who possess sanctifying grace possess everlasting life (since as the great theologians and Fathers say, grace is the seed of glory). However, we can lose sanctifying grace through rejecting it in mortal sin. And I think this is very much included both in the Gospels and in the epistles (especially the letters of St. Paul and St. James).

ETA: In other words, I don't see how the words of Christ which theJack quoted are at all incompatible that someone who currently believes could still go to Hell.

Author:  Peregrinator [ Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bishop Barron on Ben Shapiro's show.... Salvation

theJack wrote:
"Fear not, for I am with you." And, "If God is for us, who can be against us?" I, for one, have absolutely no fear of Hell. I remember when I did. But God's perfect love cast that out when I stopped looking to my own works but solely and only on those of Him who justifies the ungodly. Fear . . . That's a yoke I wouldn't want to be back under again.

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" (Proverbs 9:10a)

Author:  theJack [ Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bishop Barron on Ben Shapiro's show.... Salvation

ThomisticCajunAggie wrote:
I would agree that all who possess sanctifying grace possess everlasting life (since as the great theologians and Fathers say, grace is the seed of glory). However, we can lose sanctifying grace through rejecting it in mortal sin. And I think this is very much included both in the Gospels and in the epistles (especially the letters of St. Paul and St. James).

ETA: In other words, I don't see how the words of Christ which theJack quoted are at all incompatible that someone who currently believes could still go to Hell.

Yes, thank you for the reminder. I've heard here a time or two now that you mention it the belief that there are actually people who have eternal life who will still be condemned to the second death. Living people in who are dead. I'm sorry if I don't find that a persuasive proposition.

Peregrinator wrote:
theJack wrote:
"Fear not, for I am with you." And, "If God is for us, who can be against us?" I, for one, have absolutely no fear of Hell. I remember when I did. But God's perfect love cast that out when I stopped looking to my own works but solely and only on those of Him who justifies the ungodly. Fear . . . That's a yoke I wouldn't want to be back under again.

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" (Proverbs 9:10a)

Fear of the Lord. Not fear of Hell.

Author:  flyingaway [ Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bishop Barron on Ben Shapiro's show.... Salvation

Peregrinator wrote:
theJack wrote:
"Fear not, for I am with you." And, "If God is for us, who can be against us?" I, for one, have absolutely no fear of Hell. I remember when I did. But God's perfect love cast that out when I stopped looking to my own works but solely and only on those of Him who justifies the ungodly. Fear . . . That's a yoke I wouldn't want to be back under again.

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" (Proverbs 9:10a)

speaking for myself Fear of God ALWAYS means Fear of Hell (contrary to one poster here). As the Word tells us, it is HE who has power over us after death...

and many of us hang onto our sinfulness even as we try to let go of it... we make massive excuses for this and that sin.. but we cannot do that endlessly & expect to get to Heaven.. Heaven I am sure.. is a very very different place than this awful earth --and most of us are more/less comfortable here...

Author:  Denise Dee [ Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bishop Barron on Ben Shapiro's show.... Salvation

flyingaway wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
theJack wrote:
"Fear not, for I am with you." And, "If God is for us, who can be against us?" I, for one, have absolutely no fear of Hell. I remember when I did. But God's perfect love cast that out when I stopped looking to my own works but solely and only on those of Him who justifies the ungodly. Fear . . . That's a yoke I wouldn't want to be back under again.

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" (Proverbs 9:10a)

speaking for myself Fear of God ALWAYS means Fear of Hell (contrary to one poster here). As the Word tells us, it is HE who has power over us after death...

and many of us hang onto our sinfulness even as we try to let go of it... we make massive excuses for this and that sin.. but we cannot do that endlessly & expect to get to Heaven.. Heaven I am sure.. is a very very different place than this awful earth --and most of us are more/less comfortable here...

Do you expect to get to get to Heaven, flyingaway?

Author:  Jack3 [ Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bishop Barron on Ben Shapiro's show.... Salvation

St Thomas on fear: http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3019.htm

Author:  Jack3 [ Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bishop Barron on Ben Shapiro's show.... Salvation

I'm quoting the following for the benefit of Catholic lurkers who might see this thread:

    CANON VIII.-If any one saith, that the fear of hell,-whereby, by grieving for our sins, we flee unto the mercy of God, or refrain from sinning,-is a sin, or makes sinners worse; let him be anathema.
- Council of Trent, session VI, canons on justification

Author:  Gandalf the Grey [ Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bishop Barron on Ben Shapiro's show.... Salvation

theJack wrote:
"Truly, truly, I say to you: whoever believes in Me has everlasting life."

Notice the period.

I don't care what other verses you bring in to have Jesus contradict Himself here. The logic is flawless. All A is B. You don't get to bring in other evidence that some A is not, in fact, B. ALL believers have everlasting life. ALL. ALL. And the life they HAVE -- not will have or might have or hope to have, but HAVE in the present moment -- is everlasting. It's not ten year life or ten minute life. It's everlasting, and if I have life in one moment and ten minutes later lose that life, then clearly I wasn't alive everlastingly, now was I?

It shouldn't be to my chagrin that you don't like these sorts of apologetics. It should be to the chagrin of those who believe as you do. This is the main argument I've made for years. You can dodge it all you like and raise other verses--you can say, "BUT WHAT ABOUT?!?!?!" all you like. The absolutely irrefutable fact is Jesus' promise that all who believe have everlasting life. You're conditions . . . He doesn't consider them. Not there.

Now, I believe. I have everlasting life. I therefore have no fear of Hell. You accuse me of presumption. I accuse you of faithlessness and disloyalty. I don't accuse you of being hellbound, so let's not pretend I'm making claims I'm not.

It is a shame you don't discuss these things . . . if you believe as strongly as you say I'm wrong, you do have a call to defend the flock. Banning is always an option, as is deleting posts like this. Or you could make your case so others see why you think we shouldn't believe Jesus' words as we actually have them.

And yes, I know I'm baiting you. I truly wish you would address this. After almost nine years, I figure eventually we'll finally get around to it.


What is it that Jesus meant(or the writer of John perceived that Jesus meant) by the word “believe”?

1) Is to “believe” just to accept something intellectually in a passive way?

2) Is to just vocally profess a belief in something?

3) Or does to “believe” mean that we act out or embody everything that is implied in that act of belief, namely to embody Christ Himself in your person.


You’re going to have a seriously difficult time convincing me or most anyone else here that to “believe” means merely the first or the second, for no other fact that there was so much ink spilt all over the pages of the Bible regarding all of the other things involved which also promise with the result of eternal life.

Author:  theJack [ Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bishop Barron on Ben Shapiro's show.... Salvation

Gandalf the Grey wrote:
3) Or does to “believe” mean that we act out or embody everything that is implied in that act of belief, namely to embody Christ Himself in your person.

Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved human praise more than praise from God. - John 12:42-43

Here are people who the Bible directly says believed, and yet the expressly did not "act out or embody everything that is implied in that act of belief". That's just not what the word means. Thus, to insist that the word means "to act in accordance with everything belief implies" (which creates a logical self-contradiction, anyway) is to change the meaning of the word and therefore to positively not believe what the verse actually says.

Author:  Gandalf the Grey [ Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bishop Barron on Ben Shapiro's show.... Salvation

theJack wrote:
Gandalf the Grey wrote:
3) Or does to “believe” mean that we act out or embody everything that is implied in that act of belief, namely to embody Christ Himself in your person.

Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved human praise more than praise from God. - John 12:42-43

Here are people who the Bible directly says believed, and yet the expressly did not "act out or embody everything that is implied in that act of belief". That's just not what the word means. Thus, to insist that the word means "to act in accordance with everything belief implies" (which creates a logical self-contradiction, anyway) is to change the meaning of the word and therefore to positively not believe what the verse actually says.



That you would use a verse from a passage that in my RSV has as its header, “The Unbelief of the People” to try and use as a defense is interesting. The verse certainly isn’t referring to belief in the sense of eternal life. If it is, then according to your theology(unless I’m mistaken)then regardless of their manifest hypocrisy and utter lack of integrity they would still be saved. Which to me seems as appalling as it is wildly inappropriate and unjust.

Second, the slight of hand you employed in changing what I said in order to imply some sort of self-contradiction didn’t go unnoticed.

Either way, your response to my statement in all is rather lame and feeble.

Yes, I can grant to a certain extent that to “believe” can involve a positive statement, but must also be backed up by manifesting that belief as an existential reality. To claim to believe in God would require a humility and self-awareness so deep, a personal knowledge of God in Christ so rich, and a moral life so pure and so filled with grace that no neophyte or beginner on the journey of Christianity could possibly fathom, save some extraordinary gift(like encountering Christ on the road to Damascus).

Such a judgement of who really believes in God can only be made by Someone who knows you better than you know yourself, meaning God. We can’t judge ourselves(1Cor 4:2-3)or our state of belief with any accuracy at all because we do not possess even a fraction of the self-awareness required, all we can do is hope in Him and follow Him according to the grace We receive from Him.

You may possess a faith and integrity so upright and pure, a humility and self-awareness so profound, that you are absolutely convinced that you know you have eternal life without any obvious reference to God(the halo over your head is not so obvious from where I’m standing) and based on your personal interpretation of one solitary verse which you seem to use as a keystone for your entire hermeneutic. You can certainly have that.

I don’t. And I think that it’s a remarkably arrogant position to take. I think that it’s arrogant for anyone to have the audacity to really claim true and real belief in God when there is such a thing as concupiscence, when we undermine ourselves daily and-knowingly or unknowingly-continually commit sins and release all sorts of evil and malevolence onto the world and undermine ourselves in all sorts of ways.

At best all we can say is that we act as if God is real, and that we daily surrender ourselves to Him to the best of our abilities aided by grace, and that we hope in His mercy, and that we will be known by Him and judged worthy to be with Him.

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