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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:29 pm 
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Sons of Thunder
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You're aren't created with preprogrammed choices though. You choose to sin, rather than choosing to cooperate with grace. The only way you are created that way, is that you are a creature and hence defectible.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:58 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
You're aren't created with preprogrammed choices though. You choose to sin, rather than choosing to cooperate with grace. The only way you are created that way, is that you are a creature and hence defectible.

Those who choose to cooperate with grace have something which those who fail to choose to cooperate with grace don't have, something which makes all the difference. But those who fail to choose correctly don't choose to be lacking in the thing which makes all the difference.


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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:27 pm 
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Sabbath wrote:
I'm glad some of you here have God all figured out.
Try reading a post before you reply to it.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:58 pm 
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Closet Catholic wrote:
Sabbath wrote:
I'm glad some of you here have God all figured out.
Try reading a post before you reply to it.


I did, and don't recall responding to one of yours.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:01 pm 
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Sabbath wrote:
Closet Catholic wrote:
Sabbath wrote:
I'm glad some of you here have God all figured out.
Try reading a post before you reply to it.


I did, and don't recall responding to one of yours.

CC's point is that none of the posters claim to have fully figured out, and that it is not a valid conclusion from their posts that they have done so.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:10 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
Sabbath wrote:
Closet Catholic wrote:
Sabbath wrote:
I'm glad some of you here have God all figured out.
Try reading a post before you reply to it.


I did, and don't recall responding to one of yours.

CC's point is that none of the posters claim to have fully figured out, and that it is not a valid conclusion from their posts that they have done so.


No, they just belittle and berate those who have no interest in splitting the atom theologically.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:23 pm 
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No, what you allege is what Fr Kenobi unambiguously claimed to be not the point he was making:

Quote:
There certainly are times when it's just not going to be beneficial for a person to study a doctrine or field of doctrine, and there are certainly people who just don't have an aptitude or liking for it. (Please note that I am not challenging anyone's aptitude--I'm making a general statement.) There is nothing wrong with that.

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:31 pm 
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He says that "There is nothing wrong with [not having a linking for the study of a particular field of doctrine]".

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"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:59 am 
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I freely choose, w/my limited degree of freedom, to exit stage left...

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:18 pm 
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Quote:
it is commonly said in pop theology that "double predestination" is heresy, that statement is most unhelpful . Either what is meant by it is that God predestines both the end (heaven or hell) and the means (merit or sin), in which case it is an unhelpful strawman that no one believes, or it means that God predestines some to heaven and some to hell, but not in the same way, as He predestines both the end and means to heaven (total predestination), whereas in the latter he predestines the end based on foreseen sins, but not the sins (positive reprobation). iN which case, we believe in double predestination!


i dont understand this comment

but the predestination I believe in is:

A ) baptized Catholics (& probably other baptized Christians) are predestined to Heaven

but they can lose their way and end up in hell

B ) non-baptized people are predestined to hell unless they get baptized, in which case, we can return to A


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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:47 pm 
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Sabbath wrote:
I freely choose, w/my limited degree of freedom, to exit stage left...
So you flee after slandering people and lying about them. Classy.

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“Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt.” — Paul Tillich

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English texts: http://katolikken.wordpress.com/tag/english-texts-2/

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:51 pm 
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flyingaway wrote:
but the predestination I believe in is:

A ) baptized Catholics (& probably other baptized Christians) are predestined to Heaven

but they can lose their way and end up in hell

B ) non-baptized people are predestined to hell unless they get baptized, in which case, we can return to A

Predestination doesn't work this way. God is the cause, not us.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:10 pm 
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Closet Catholic wrote:
Sabbath wrote:
I freely choose, w/my limited degree of freedom, to exit stage left...
So you flee after slandering people and lying about them. Classy.


So you stay to do the same? A real class act here folks!

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:07 pm 
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flyingaway wrote:
Quote:
it is commonly said in pop theology that "double predestination" is heresy, that statement is most unhelpful . Either what is meant by it is that God predestines both the end (heaven or hell) and the means (merit or sin), in which case it is an unhelpful strawman that no one believes, or it means that God predestines some to heaven and some to hell, but not in the same way, as He predestines both the end and means to heaven (total predestination), whereas in the latter he predestines the end based on foreseen sins, but not the sins (positive reprobation). iN which case, we believe in double predestination!


i dont understand this comment

but the predestination I believe in is:

A ) baptized Catholics (& probably other baptized Christians) are predestined to Heaven

but they can lose their way and end up in hell

B ) non-baptized people are predestined to hell unless they get baptized, in which case, we can return to A

That is not what predestination is. Predestination is God's eternal will. Complete predestination means the eternal decree both that you go to heaven and the means to that end.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:46 pm 
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So what is the real "hope" of the individual Catholic, just some vague hope that they may be counted as one of the elect, never really knowing if God even loves them?

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:17 pm 
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We hope that God will finish the work which He has begun in us, which we hope on the grounds (a) that He has begun it in us, which demonstrates His love for us, and (b) His promise to complete that work in those who do not present an obstacle to Him.

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:26 pm 
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Sabbath wrote:
So what is the real "hope" of the individual Catholic, just some vague hope that they may be counted as one of the elect, never really knowing if God even loves them?


God loves you! You can be certain of that.


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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:36 pm 
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Dorothy B. wrote:
Sabbath wrote:
So what is the real "hope" of the individual Catholic, just some vague hope that they may be counted as one of the elect, never really knowing if God even loves them?


God loves you! You can be certain of that.


I bet there are more than a few here who would not be so certain, w/that type of belief in "double predestination", how could you be?

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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:48 pm 
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Sabbath wrote:
Dorothy B. wrote:
Sabbath wrote:
So what is the real "hope" of the individual Catholic, just some vague hope that they may be counted as one of the elect, never really knowing if God even loves them?


God loves you! You can be certain of that.


I bet there are more than a few here who would not be so certain, w/that type of belief in "double predestination", how could you be?


God, our Loving Father does not create us and then turn His back on us.


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 Post subject: Re: anyone here know/understand Augustine: "predestination"
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:16 pm 
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Sabbath wrote:
Dorothy B. wrote:
Sabbath wrote:
So what is the real "hope" of the individual Catholic, just some vague hope that they may be counted as one of the elect, never really knowing if God even loves them?


God loves you! You can be certain of that.


I bet there are more than a few here who would not be so certain, w/that type of belief in "double predestination", how could you be?

What do you mean by double predestination?

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