Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 1   [ 7 posts ]   
Author Message
 Post subject: Beatific Vision in this life?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:50 pm 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 4:46 pm
Posts: 30
Religion: Catholic
What's to prevent us from experiencing the Beatific Vision in this life, assuming God grants the grace to experience it?

I can think of a few things, but I'll let you guys go off first.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Beatific Vision in this life?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 4:00 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 83791
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
Nothing. But God does not grant it, except perhaps at brief moments.

The reason I can say "nothing" is that it's theologically certain that the human soul of Christ enjoyed it from the moment of His conception, so there is nothing connected with human nature that prevents it.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Beatific Vision in this life?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 4:22 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 9:23 am
Posts: 3460
Religion: Catholic
I suppose until someone reaches a great purity of soul in this life?

_________________
"The only successful method will be that which bases harmony and agreement among Christ's faithful ones upon all the truths, and the whole of the truths, which God has revealed." -Pope Pius XII

Some of these ecumenists are so preoccupied with Christian unity that they are willing to destroy Catholic unity in the name of Christian unity. - Fr. John Hardon


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Beatific Vision in this life?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:49 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 9:34 pm
Posts: 29192
Location: Sine Domum
Religion: Roman Catholic
St. Thomas addresses this in several places. His answer is no one can experience it in this life. But that has a nuance hidden in it, which he only explains in detail in his scripture commentaries. Christ was unique as "wayfarer and comprehensor." The rest of us are mere wayfarers, and as such cannot have the beatific vision. Yet St. Paul, and before him Moses, saw God face to face. St. Thomas explains this by emphasizing the rapture element of St. Paul's experience, as well as by paying keen attention to his words, "whether in this body or out of it"

From a paper I wrote:

As a scholastic, St. Thomas then raises an objection against his own interpretation. Only the blessed see God face to face and hence St. Paul would have been immortal. St. Thomas answers that the light of glory is necessary to see God face to face. The blessed receive this light as a property, and hence are glorified, but St. Paul received this light the way air receives light, in a passing manner. This fits with the text, because it is called a rapture, which implies impermanence. Hence St. Paul was not actually beatified simply speaking, because his soul and body was not raised to the status of the glorified. Rather, St. Paul was made, for a passing time, to share in an act of the blessed.1



And further down I quoted from his commentary on St. Paul :

No one placed in this life and living this mortal life can see the divine essence. Whence the Lord says in Exodus 33:20 that “man shall not see me and live,” that is, man shall not see me, unless totally separated from his body just so that namely his soul is not in his body as a form or if in the body as a form, still his mind is in every way alienated totally from the senses in a vision of this sort. And therefore it must be said, that this, that the Apostle says he does not know means namely whether in that vision his soul was totally separated from his body, whence he says “whether out of the body”; or whether his soul existed in the body, as a form, still his mind was alienated from bodily senses, when he say “or in the body.”



In short, St. Paul experiences some sort of separation from this life in order to see God. Seeing God directly is not possible within the parameters of this life, as a wayfarer, and so for it to happen must involve being raptured from this life. A sort of death, St. Thomas says.



He also discusses this in the Summa

On the contrary, It is written, "Man shall not see Me, and live" (Exodus 32:20), and a gloss upon this says, "In this mortal life God can be seen by certain images, but not by the likeness itself of His own nature."

I answer that, God cannot be seen in His essence by a mere human being, except he be separated from this mortal life. The reason is because, as was said above (Article 4), the mode of knowledge follows the mode of the nature of the knower. But our soul, as long as we live in this life, has its being in corporeal matter; hence naturally it knows only what has a form in matter, or what can be known by such a form. Now it is evident that the Divine essence cannot be known through the nature of material things. For it was shown above (Question 2, Article 9) that the knowledge of God by means of any created similitude is not the vision of His essence. Hence it is impossible for the soul of man in this life to see the essence of God. This can be seen in the fact that the more our soul is abstracted from corporeal things, the more it is capable of receiving abstract intelligible things. Hence in dreams and alienations of the bodily senses divine revelations and foresight of future events are perceived the more clearly. It is not possible, therefore, that the soul in this mortal life should be raised up to the supreme of intelligible objects, i.e. to the divine essence.


And answering the objection from the example of Moses (who saw God os ad os, face to face) and St. Paul:
As God works miracles in corporeal things, so also He does supernatural wonders above the common order, raising the minds of some living in the flesh beyond the use of sense, even up to the vision of His own essence; as Augustine says (Gen. ad lit. xii, 26,27,28) of Moses, the teacher of the Jews; and of Paul, the teacher of the Gentiles. This will be treated more fully in the question of rapture


You might also look at: http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3175.htm#article3

And http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4015.htm#article10 (Christ as wayfarer and comprehensor)



The heart of the issue is that seeing God face to face is the FINAL end of man, that in which he rests. Hence, insofar as one is still journeying in this life (wayfarer-viator) he cannot be at the end of his life, which is the beatific vision. Christ straddled both in a way unique to Him. Before He entered into His glory, the beatification of His human nature was not fully realized in His lower passions, powers and body. This is also true of St. Paul and Moses, with a further difference that they only beheld God in a transitory fashion and not, like Christ, as something permnently joined...not in this life

_________________
Quoniam sapientia aperuit os mutorum, et linguas infantium fecit disertas.

http://stomachosus-thomistarum.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Beatific Vision in this life?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:36 pm 
Offline
**********
**********
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 09, 2013 4:18 am
Posts: 1290
Location: Isnt this a better pic of me?
Religion: I'm smiling, and I let my hair grow,..
Church Affiliations: I lost a few lbs. too.
I just love to hear you all, on subjects that are so drawing.

My understanding of this, is that it is possible, while alive, on the earth.

Paul said he believed he either left his body, or went up to heaven with his body. (some visions are open, and the person believes they have gone to where ever the vision is showing them)

My Catholic friend told me that the communion is a place and time where union with Jesus occurs, body and soul and divinity. This is where the mystical marriage must happen, and may not include a trip to heaven, but through coming closer and closer to Christ, in our spirits where He is, we may experience progressively more of heaven on the earth.
(Thy kingdom come...on earth, as it is, in Heaven) (Your Kingdom come inside my Spirit, bringing Heaven to the earth)

The mystical marriage is definitely part in the communion,...maybe entering into progressively increasing worship of God, ie. I have had a season of this in my life, through the Song of Songs, Canticles, where I enter into the story, with Jesus as the King, and I am the Shulamite, and I love worship Him through this writing, having previously found out what all the symbols in the story mean.

It helped me to know what worship as a word meant,..meaning to ascribe worth- to one of greatest honour, and thinking on all the wonderful attributes of God, or seeing them in the Song of Songs acted out with our Christian understanding of this love poem, is a way that I give all my attention and Love or Devotion to God.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Beatific Vision in this life?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:43 pm 
Offline
**********
**********
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 09, 2013 4:18 am
Posts: 1290
Location: Isnt this a better pic of me?
Religion: I'm smiling, and I let my hair grow,..
Church Affiliations: I lost a few lbs. too.
I think God wants us to draw close to Him, I believe the closer we come to Him, the better He likes it, and there are all kinds of goodies that are Him along this path.

Draw near to me, and I will draw near to you, didn't the Father say this somewhere in the Scriptures? Of course He would, because He loves us! We are in Christ, so in His eyes we have never done anything wrong! (justified, just as if we had never sinned)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Beatific Vision in this life?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:47 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 83791
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
HisDaughter wrote:
I think God wants us to draw close to Him, I believe the closer we come to Him, the better He likes it, and there are all kinds of goodies that are Him along this path.

There are also plenty of crosses.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 1   [ 7 posts ]   


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests


Jump to: