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 Post subject: Re: I Wish I Could be Catholic
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2022 9:23 pm 
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I ran for Congress in 2004. I was approached by a lady who worked for the state Bureau of Prisons. She wanted my help to correct an injustice. She wanted to get a certain inmate out of prison so she could marry him. She had a letter he wrote, in which he admitted his crime, but said he was young and on drugs them, and was a different man now and had converted to Christianity.

The injustice was he had forgiven his accuser, but his accuser would not forgive him.

So I said I'd look into it. He had been at a friend's house doing drugs, and the friend left to get more drugs. While the friend was gone, he beat and raped his friend's wife -- beat her so badly that she suffered permanent brain damage. Then he dragged her unconscious body out of the house and up the railway embankment and left her lying with her arms across the rail.

Under Arkansas law, whenever a violent criminal is up for parole, his victim is notified and has a right to address the parole board. And that's just what she does, and she should get a medal for it.

But HE has forgiven HER.

And he has converted to Christianity.


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 Post subject: Re: I Wish I Could be Catholic
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 12:20 pm 
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That's a sad story. Seems he misunderstood . . . well . . . all of it.

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Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


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 Post subject: Re: I Wish I Could be Catholic
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:38 pm 
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FWIW, Berkowitz does not play the conversion card in his parole hearings.

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 Post subject: Re: I Wish I Could be Catholic
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2022 9:44 pm 
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theJack wrote:
I was interested in this thread. Then I saw LotE invade with his typical nonsense. Then I lost interest.


Sorry. I have to stop getting triggered every time I see a mistranslation of the scriptures being used to defend the unthinkable.


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 Post subject: Re: I Wish I Could be Catholic
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2022 9:48 pm 
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Doom wrote:
theJack wrote:
I was interested in this thread. Then I saw LotE invade with his typical nonsense. Then I lost interest.


It is indeed extremely bizarre how someone who when I first met him was a fire and brimstone preacher has morphed into someone who thinks Hitler, Stalin, Jeffrey Dahmer, and Charles Manson are experiencing eternal bliss in heaven because no sin is bad enough to warrant punishment. I can only assume it is a classic case of 'overcompensation'.


If you are going to criticize a person, kindly state his comments correctly. I have never said that the evil go directly to heaven or to a state of bliss. While I have no knowledge of the way that the next life operates per se, we do know that scripture promises that those who do evil will suffer in proportion to the evil that they have done, which may well mean that Hitler, Mao, Stalin, and a whole host of other unsavory characters are still going through a painful chastening for their evil deeds.

This fear of punishment, FYI, keeps me from sin and in the Confessional on a regular basis. God is not mocked, and His justice is not truncated for any reason. According to Jesus, we shall pay the full amount owed.


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 Post subject: Re: I Wish I Could be Catholic
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2022 1:04 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:
This fear of punishment, FYI, keeps me from sin and in the Confessional on a regular basis. God is not mocked, and His justice is not truncated for any reason. According to Jesus, we shall pay the full amount owed.

What a terrible, painful, Pharisaical, and defeated wat to live. I realize that you are emotionally attached to it, but we are often often attached to our worst vices. May God deliver from this fear.

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Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


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 Post subject: Re: I Wish I Could be Catholic
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2022 2:16 pm 
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theJack wrote:
Light of the East wrote:
This fear of punishment, FYI, keeps me from sin and in the Confessional on a regular basis. God is not mocked, and His justice is not truncated for any reason. According to Jesus, we shall pay the full amount owed.

What a terrible, painful, Pharisaical, and defeated wat to live. I realize that you are emotionally attached to it, but we are often often attached to our worst vices. May God deliver from this fear.


It is the first of three stages of the Spiritual Life, or Development. While none of us should want to stay there, it isn't the totally negative picture that you just painted.

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 Post subject: Re: I Wish I Could be Catholic
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:38 pm 
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theJack wrote:
Light of the East wrote:
This fear of punishment, FYI, keeps me from sin and in the Confessional on a regular basis. God is not mocked, and His justice is not truncated for any reason. According to Jesus, we shall pay the full amount owed.

What a terrible, painful, Pharisaical, and defeated wat to live. I realize that you are emotionally attached to it, but we are often often attached to our worst vices. May God deliver from this fear.


FYI - it is not the craven, cowering fear that you seem to believe I have. Perhaps I should have been more precise with my wording. In Orthodoxy, we do not have the vision of the angry, juridical God who is just waiting to whup up on sinners. We have a loving, heavenly Father who is going to save all His children, even the most wayward and wicked of them. This salvation can be accomplished either here on earth with our cooperation, which involves ascetic works of fasting, prayer, the Sacraments, and good works. Doing these things changes our ontological being and makes us more like Christ, which is the ultimate goal of all mankind ("God became man so that man might become God." - St. Athanasius). This change is painful to the old nature. By nature we do not like fasting, we are lazy when it comes to prayer, we would rather be home watching football than at Vespers services, and loving out enemies??? Pfffffffft!!! Who wants to do that?

OR

We can experience the change of our ontology in the next life, which is far, FAR more painful. This is the "fear" I spoke of, but perhaps a better word for it would be "respect" or "concern." I know my Father in heaven will change me in the next life and I know that there is lot to change. And the more there is for Him to change, the more painful it will be. This "respect" of the painful change keeps me from wanting to sin. Like any good father, our Father will chasten in love His children. I would rather avoid as much of that as possible.

In addition, there are rewards to be earned for our good deeds. Eschewing sin is a good deed. Loving God is a good deed. Prayers for our enemies, doing good to them, caring for the poor and hungry are all good deeds. I hope some of them are there at the Judgment Seat waiting for me and that I not be empty-handed.

Let me close by giving you a story about the difference between the angry God and the loving God. When I was a Bob Jones Fundamentalist, we would have evangelists come to our church for a "revival." Friday nights was always "tithing night," the night that the evangelist preached on tithing. One such Tennessee Windsucker told us this story: A man who faithfully tithed was in a very tight financial situation and decided to skip his tithe one week. Sure enough, the next week, his car broke down and guess what?? The amount needed to repair the car came to the same amount as his tithe -- right down to the penny.

For a long time, I was scared spitless to not tithe, thinking that God would take it out of my hide somehow. That is not evangelism, that is theological terrorism!!! But there are lots of people preaching this judgmental, angry God who, if you don't do everything just right, will roll up His sleeves and give you a good beatin' !!

My coming to understand the love of our heavenly Father - so different from the story I told above - is slowly changing my view of Him and how He deals with us.

BTW - I said what I said in response to what appeared to be an inference that because I believe in Universal Restoration, I live a spiritually sloppy life and do not care about sin. That is a common (and FALSE) accusation leveled against those of us who believe in God's all-encompassing love.


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 Post subject: Re: I Wish I Could be Catholic
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:41 am 
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Light of the East wrote:
In Orthodoxy, we do not have the vision of the angry, juridical God who is just waiting to whup up on sinners. We have a loving, heavenly Father who is going to save all His children, even the most wayward and wicked of them.

You really shouldn't project your bespoke ideas about God and salvation on Orthodox believers in general.

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 Post subject: Re: I Wish I Could be Catholic
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:03 am 
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We as christians believe in the divinity of Jesus and everything He taught, if it were written, the world could not even contain the books. Imagine what Peter witnessed.

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 Post subject: Re: I Wish I Could be Catholic
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 4:17 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Light of the East wrote:
In Orthodoxy, we do not have the vision of the angry, juridical God who is just waiting to whup up on sinners. We have a loving, heavenly Father who is going to save all His children, even the most wayward and wicked of them.

You really shouldn't project your bespoke ideas about God and salvation on Orthodox believers in general.


Maybe you should listen to Ancient Faith Radio and speak with some Orthodox priests, including mine.

This is the common understanding of Western soteriology. God approaches man as Judge, not as Healer, as angry and in need of being placated (read some of the current "visions" of Catholic "visionaries" which are all over social media!), not as Father, but as King.

This is why I converted . . . the vision of God in the East is far more irenic and fatherly than in the West.


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 Post subject: Re: I Wish I Could be Catholic
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:56 pm 
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One more time: What you were taught in your hellfire and brimstone version of Protestantism isn't typical of Western Christianity. It is rejected every time it comes up (e.g., Jansenism.)

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 Post subject: Re: I Wish I Could be Catholic
PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:40 am 
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Light of the East wrote:

This is the common understanding of Western soteriology. God approaches man as Judge, not as Healer, as angry and in need of being placated (read some of the current "visions" of Catholic "visionaries" which are all over social media!), not as Father, but as King.



It's both/and, not either/or. He is both judge and healer. His judgement does not trump his mercy. They are in balance.

St. Thomas Aquinas said, “God acts mercifully, not indeed by going against his justice, but by doing something more than justice;...Hence the apostle [Paul] calls remission a forgiving: “Forgive one another, as Christ has forgiven you” (Eph 4:32). Hence it is clear that mercy does not destroy justice, but in a sense is the fullness thereof. Thus it is said, “Mercy exalts itself above judgment” (Jas 2:13). (Summa Theologiae I:21:3)

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 Post subject: Re: I Wish I Could be Catholic
PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:06 am 
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anawim wrote:
Light of the East wrote:

This is the common understanding of Western soteriology. God approaches man as Judge, not as Healer, as angry and in need of being placated (read some of the current "visions" of Catholic "visionaries" which are all over social media!), not as Father, but as King.



It's both/and, not either/or. He is both judge and healer. His judgement does not trump his mercy. They are in balance.

St. Thomas Aquinas said, “God acts mercifully, not indeed by going against his justice, but by doing something more than justice;...Hence the apostle [Paul] calls remission a forgiving: “Forgive one another, as Christ has forgiven you” (Eph 4:32). Hence it is clear that mercy does not destroy justice, but in a sense is the fullness thereof. Thus it is said, “Mercy exalts itself above judgment” (Jas 2:13). (Summa Theologiae I:21:3)


For me, this is like my earthly father. He was one of the most loving, caring, forgiving people I've ever known - he was also moved to tears at the drop of a pin - yet, when I would try to sneak in the house HOURS after curfew and saw him standing in that hallway, I knew I was going to pay for my transgression!

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 Post subject: Re: I Wish I Could be Catholic
PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2022 3:57 pm 
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kage_ar wrote:
anawim wrote:
Light of the East wrote:

This is the common understanding of Western soteriology. God approaches man as Judge, not as Healer, as angry and in need of being placated (read some of the current "visions" of Catholic "visionaries" which are all over social media!), not as Father, but as King.



It's both/and, not either/or. He is both judge and healer. His judgement does not trump his mercy. They are in balance.

St. Thomas Aquinas said, “God acts mercifully, not indeed by going against his justice, but by doing something more than justice;...Hence the apostle [Paul] calls remission a forgiving: “Forgive one another, as Christ has forgiven you” (Eph 4:32). Hence it is clear that mercy does not destroy justice, but in a sense is the fullness thereof. Thus it is said, “Mercy exalts itself above judgment” (Jas 2:13). (Summa Theologiae I:21:3)


For me, this is like my earthly father. He was one of the most loving, caring, forgiving people I've ever known - he was also moved to tears at the drop of a pin - yet, when I would try to sneak in the house HOURS after curfew and saw him standing in that hallway, I knew I was going to pay for my transgression!


Exactly! A child is disciplined, but if that doesn't work, then tough love is applied. If that doesn't work, then it's the choice of the child to be wayward. It's a choice of the will, and ultimately that choice is respected. Uhh...what were you doing out so late? Is there something you'd like to share with the class ;)

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 Post subject: Re: I Wish I Could be Catholic
PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 11:50 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:
theJack wrote:
Light of the East wrote:
This fear of punishment, FYI, keeps me from sin and in the Confessional on a regular basis. God is not mocked, and His justice is not truncated for any reason. According to Jesus, we shall pay the full amount owed.

What a terrible, painful, Pharisaical, and defeated wat to live. I realize that you are emotionally attached to it, but we are often often attached to our worst vices. May God deliver from this fear.


FYI - it is not the craven, cowering fear that you seem to believe I have. Perhaps I should have been more precise with my wording. In Orthodoxy, we do not have the vision of the angry, juridical God who is just waiting to whup up on sinners. We have a loving, heavenly Father who is going to save all His children, even the most wayward and wicked of them. This salvation can be accomplished either here on earth with our cooperation, which involves ascetic works of fasting, prayer, the Sacraments, and good works. Doing these things changes our ontological being and makes us more like Christ, which is the ultimate goal of all mankind ("God became man so that man might become God." - St. Athanasius). This change is painful to the old nature. By nature we do not like fasting, we are lazy when it comes to prayer, we would rather be home watching football than at Vespers services, and loving out enemies??? Pfffffffft!!! Who wants to do that?

OR

We can experience the change of our ontology in the next life, which is far, FAR more painful. This is the "fear" I spoke of, but perhaps a better word for it would be "respect" or "concern." I know my Father in heaven will change me in the next life and I know that there is lot to change. And the more there is for Him to change, the more painful it will be. This "respect" of the painful change keeps me from wanting to sin. Like any good father, our Father will chasten in love His children. I would rather avoid as much of that as possible.

In addition, there are rewards to be earned for our good deeds. Eschewing sin is a good deed. Loving God is a good deed. Prayers for our enemies, doing good to them, caring for the poor and hungry are all good deeds. I hope some of them are there at the Judgment Seat waiting for me and that I not be empty-handed.

Let me close by giving you a story about the difference between the angry God and the loving God. When I was a Bob Jones Fundamentalist, we would have evangelists come to our church for a "revival." Friday nights was always "tithing night," the night that the evangelist preached on tithing. One such Tennessee Windsucker told us this story: A man who faithfully tithed was in a very tight financial situation and decided to skip his tithe one week. Sure enough, the next week, his car broke down and guess what?? The amount needed to repair the car came to the same amount as his tithe -- right down to the penny.

For a long time, I was scared spitless to not tithe, thinking that God would take it out of my hide somehow. That is not evangelism, that is theological terrorism!!! But there are lots of people preaching this judgmental, angry God who, if you don't do everything just right, will roll up His sleeves and give you a good beatin' !!

My coming to understand the love of our heavenly Father - so different from the story I told above - is slowly changing my view of Him and how He deals with us.

BTW - I said what I said in response to what appeared to be an inference that because I believe in Universal Restoration, I live a spiritually sloppy life and do not care about sin. That is a common (and FALSE) accusation leveled against those of us who believe in God's all-encompassing love.

And all the hemming and hawing doesn't change that, apparently, it's the fear of punishment, however qualified, that keeps you in the confessional. It seems you still have more Bob Jones in you than you realize. I strongly suspect that much of your universalism isn't real but just a reaction against and a balm for that basic Pharisaism you can't seem to shake. As I said, I'll be praying for your deliverance.

anawim wrote:
theJack wrote:
Light of the East wrote:
This fear of punishment, FYI, keeps me from sin and in the Confessional on a regular basis. God is not mocked, and His justice is not truncated for any reason. According to Jesus, we shall pay the full amount owed.

What a terrible, painful, Pharisaical, and defeated wat to live. I realize that you are emotionally attached to it, but we are often often attached to our worst vices. May God deliver from this fear.


It is the first of three stages of the Spiritual Life, or Development. While none of us should want to stay there, it isn't the totally negative picture that you just painted.

Yes, it is. It's definitely totally negative. Forget staying there. We should never be there. And if we find ourselves there, we should repent and find our way out of there as soon as possible, quite probably with the serious help of fellow believers, not the least of which needs to be a good spiritual director!

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 Post subject: Re: I Wish I Could be Catholic
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:00 am 
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O my God,
I am heartily sorry for
having offended Thee,
and I detest all my sins,
because I dread the loss of heaven,
and the pains of hell
;
but most of all because
they offend Thee, my God,
Who are all good and
deserving of all my love.
I firmly resolve,
with the help of Thy grace
to confess my sins,
to do penance
and to amend my life.

Amen.

Imperfect contrition is valid. And I suspect far more common than perfect contrition.


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 Post subject: Re: I Wish I Could be Catholic
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:19 pm 
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Ed,

I know the board messaging system has been down for some time. I sent you a PM. I don't know if it went through. Just FYI.

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Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


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 Post subject: Re: I Wish I Could be Catholic
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:43 pm 
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Doom wrote:
anawim wrote:
Petros/Petras is a non-starter even in the Greek. There was no distinction in Koine Greek. You have to go back to Attic Greek at the time of Socrates to find a distinction.


Ultimately, appealing to the Greek is an unpersuasive argument, the number of people who are capable of both understanding the argument and determining it's validity in miniscule, and 99% of all appeals to the Greek are made by people unqualified to discuss it at all.

In addition, whenever a Protestant apologist makes an appeal to "the original languages" it accomplishes nothing except to convince me of the necessity of the Magesterium, as one should not have to spend decades studying a dozen ancient languages just to understand the Bible. I'm a mathematician, I have intention of spending my entire life re-inventing all theology from the ground up.


For the most part I would agree with your criticism of “appeal to Aramaic” but John really does hammer this particular appeal home when he plainly tells us that Peter was known as Cephas. Not Petros. He is writing in Greek so he does refer to him as Peter, but includes a parenthetical to make sure people know who he is talking about.

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