Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 1   [ 17 posts ]   
Author Message
 Post subject: Pre-Fall State and the Immaculate Conception
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2022 11:33 am 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie

Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2022 11:21 am
Posts: 19
Religion: Christian
Hi,
I would like to see if any theologians out there can explain the nature of the pre-Fall state of Man. There is an idea among the Eastern Fathers/Eastern Orthodox that the "skins" man received after the Fall were our literal skin- epidermis. No one among the EO theologians can explain what exactly we were like before the Fall, only that we were clothed with Divine Light, or Light of Mt. Tabor. Naturally, my imagination paints an image of Adam and Eve as some kind of funny, "glow-in-the-dark-exo-skeleton" like what you see in high school science books diagraming our muscular system, :)! I don't believe that is accurate, of course- I believe the "skins" God made were of animal skins from the sacrifice that needed to happen as a consequence, but I'm thinking more along the lines of man having his full epidermis initially and with the covering of the Light on him. After the Fall, the Light is removed, exposing their "skin suit," what we all look like now.

2nd part- I was reading about the IC in the Catechism and how Mary had not only no personal sin, but also the consequences of the Fall removed from her. So, does this mean Mary looked like Man's pre-Fall state, whatever that was? Thanks.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pre-Fall State and the Immaculate Conception
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 7:31 pm 
Offline
Head Administrator
Head Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 9:24 am
Posts: 73642
Location: Music City
Religion: Catholic
I've never heard of this. I hope somebody comes along and responds.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pre-Fall State and the Immaculate Conception
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2022 7:11 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:05 pm
Posts: 461
Religion: Catholic
Can you give us a source for this thought? What Eastern Father? Oh and "reading about the IC in the Catechism" Just got it Immaculate conception :laughhard


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pre-Fall State and the Immaculate Conception
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2022 8:27 am 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 83127
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
I have never heard of this before either.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pre-Fall State and the Immaculate Conception
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2022 8:00 pm 
Offline
Adept
Adept
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:25 am
Posts: 5183
Location: Fort Smith, AR
Religion: Christian & Missionary Alliance
I don't know the specific patristic writings that talk about this, but it is discussed today and attributed to pre-Christian Jewish thought. I know from personal connections Orthodox regularly claim that much of early Christian thought and liturgy was taken directly from those very ancient traditions.

Anyway, here's an article y'all might find informative and perhaps give you some starting points if you want to dig into primary sources:

https://biologos.org/series/genesis-cre ... -nakedness

_________________
Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pre-Fall State and the Immaculate Conception
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2022 11:25 am 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie

Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2022 11:21 am
Posts: 19
Religion: Christian
Stargazer wrote:
Can you give us a source for this thought? What Eastern Father? Oh and "reading about the IC in the Catechism" Just got it Immaculate conception :laughhard


Sorry, I don't have time at the moment to find a link for you, but I know St. John Chrysostom speaks of it in his homily 15 on Genesis 2. Shouldn't be too hard to dig up... I know he took that from others as well.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pre-Fall State and the Immaculate Conception
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2022 9:34 pm 
Offline
Prodigal Son of Thunder
Prodigal Son of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 10:54 am
Posts: 40567
Location: Ithilien
Religion: Dunedain Catholic
Church Affiliations: AWC, CSB, UIGSE-FSE (FNE)
Inquirer wrote:
Stargazer wrote:
Can you give us a source for this thought? What Eastern Father? Oh and "reading about the IC in the Catechism" Just got it Immaculate conception :laughhard


Sorry, I don't have time at the moment to find a link for you, but I know St. John Chrysostom speaks of it in his homily 15 on Genesis 2. Shouldn't be too hard to dig up... I know he took that from others as well.


It's in Homily 18 on Genesis and St. Chrysostom speaks of garments of skin, but not in the sense of being the epidermis of humans:

https://sites.google.com/site/aquinasst ... 8-on-genes

_________________
Formerly Bagheera

"Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the King." (1 Peter 2:17)
Federation of North-American Explorers - North Star Group - How You Can Help


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pre-Fall State and the Immaculate Conception
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2022 12:08 am 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie

Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2022 11:21 am
Posts: 19
Religion: Christian
Peregrinator wrote:
Inquirer wrote:
Stargazer wrote:
Can you give us a source for this thought? What Eastern Father? Oh and "reading about the IC in the Catechism" Just got it Immaculate conception :laughhard


Sorry, I don't have time at the moment to find a link for you, but I know St. John Chrysostom speaks of it in his homily 15 on Genesis 2. Shouldn't be too hard to dig up... I know he took that from others as well.


It's in Homily 18 on Genesis and St. Chrysostom speaks of garments of skin, but not in the sense of being the epidermis of humans:

https://sites.google.com/site/aquinasst ... 8-on-genes


Ah, I know it was discussed in a theology class I took, I'll have to look back in my notes.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pre-Fall State and the Immaculate Conception
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2022 2:36 am 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie

Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2022 11:21 am
Posts: 19
Religion: Christian
Peregrinator wrote:
Inquirer wrote:
Stargazer wrote:
Can you give us a source for this thought? What Eastern Father? Oh and "reading about the IC in the Catechism" Just got it Immaculate conception :laughhard


Sorry, I don't have time at the moment to find a link for you, but I know St. John Chrysostom speaks of it in his homily 15 on Genesis 2. Shouldn't be too hard to dig up... I know he took that from others as well.


It's in Homily 18 on Genesis and St. Chrysostom speaks of garments of skin, but not in the sense of being the epidermis of humans:

https://sites.google.com/site/aquinasst ... 8-on-genes


Ah, okay, I found something. I heard teachers talking about it, but I also got a big chuck of it from a book called Theology of the Body by Jean-Claude Larchet:

"Whereas his nature's original mode of existence brought Adam closer to the angelic state, this new mode brought him closer to that of the animals. His body acquired a materiality, a thickness, and an opacity that it did not originally possess... This new mode of existence is indicated in Genesis by the 'garments of skin,' which symbolize both its material, animal character, the mortality inherent in it, and also the fact that it is, as it were, added on to man's true nature."

Larchet takes a lot of his material from St. Maximus the Confessor in his Ambigua, which is pretty hard to find online. This highlights some of it:
https://orthodoxchristiantheology.com/2 ... a-to-john/.

That article also has an interesting subheading "implications of the sinless birth" which talk about it's implications for Marian theology... which answers my original question about Mary's state of existence, having been born free of original sin.

Other Larchet sources: Gregory of Nyssa The Great Catechism, https://ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf205/np ... i.vii.html

Chrysostom's homily 16.1 (not 15) on Genesis, https://sites.google.com/site/aquinasst ... on-genesis


... Okay, it is past midnight. I shouldn't have gotten into this so late! :)!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pre-Fall State and the Immaculate Conception
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2022 3:59 pm 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2022 7:42 am
Posts: 74
Location: Maine
Religion: Catholic
Updating

Peace always,
Stephen


Last edited by StephenAndrewMaher on Sat Apr 09, 2022 4:16 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pre-Fall State and the Immaculate Conception
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2022 4:06 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 83127
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
This is incorrect in several respects, or at best very unclear:

Mary retained a human free will. She freely accepted God's plan for her life.

Her freedom from sin was a gift from God, not dependent upon her acceptance.

Heaven was not closed merely to flesh but to souls as well.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pre-Fall State and the Immaculate Conception
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2022 4:17 pm 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2022 7:42 am
Posts: 74
Location: Maine
Religion: Catholic
Great information let me work on some writing here thanks again


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pre-Fall State and the Immaculate Conception
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 11:52 pm 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2022 7:42 am
Posts: 74
Location: Maine
Religion: Catholic
Mary knew. Mary accepted what was offered to her. To become the queen of heaven. Approached by an angel and informed completely as to her task. “Behold I am the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to Your will.” And Mary said,"My soul doth magnify the Lord. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior. Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name. And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him."
As Christs’ mother Mary new more than any human as to Christs divinity and ultimate plan. She had predictive revelation. She knew her son and his future plan. She went home with John after the crucifixion. This is where the unknown disciple, John at the time took her home. Proof Jesus was an only child, Jewish custom was to give your mother to your best friend. On the cross he spoke to you by name before you were born, “Disciple, behold your mother.” Carry on disciple, at the time it was John. Take Mary home as John did for at least 30 years, listen to her, Pray to her and ask for guidance from the Queen of Council. This explains why The Gospel of John is so different than the synoptic Gospels. Mary was why The Gospel of John talks so much about Jesus being God. The Queen of Council also was the driving force for the information revealed in Revelations. John had the answers from Mary the New arc of the Covenant, The queen of Martyrs and God Bearer.

Rev "And there were given to the woman two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the desert unto her place, where she is nourished for a time and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent."

Peace always,
Stephen Andrew


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pre-Fall State and the Immaculate Conception
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 11:57 pm 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2022 7:42 am
Posts: 74
Location: Maine
Religion: Catholic
It was Gods will that Man live forever on an earth full of food. And man would experience no pain or sorrow. That His flesh never grow old and die.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pre-Fall State and the Immaculate Conception
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2022 7:48 am 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2022 7:42 am
Posts: 74
Location: Maine
Religion: Catholic
My Question. Do you thing that the angels that agreed with God's plan went up to heaven then?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pre-Fall State and the Immaculate Conception
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:11 am 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2022 7:42 am
Posts: 74
Location: Maine
Religion: Catholic
"Pre-Fall Man, Post-Fall Man, Reborn Man, Glorified Man.
able to sin, able to sin, able to sin, able to not sin.
able to not sin, unable to not sin, able to not sin, unable to sin."

Peace always,
Stephen


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pre-Fall State and the Immaculate Conception
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:59 pm 
Offline
Trophy Dwarf
Trophy Dwarf
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:10 pm
Posts: 34855
Location: Here in the center holding my bleeding heart...
Religion: Catholic Convert
Church Affiliations: Dorothy Day Guild
theJack wrote:
I don't know the specific patristic writings that talk about this, but it is discussed today and attributed to pre-Christian Jewish thought. I know from personal connections Orthodox regularly claim that much of early Christian thought and liturgy was taken directly from those very ancient traditions.

Anyway, here's an article y'all might find informative and perhaps give you some starting points if you want to dig into primary sources:

https://biologos.org/series/genesis-cre ... -nakedness


Interesting read. Thanks!!!

_________________
Living life on prayers and hooks and needles...


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 1   [ 17 posts ]   


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests


Jump to: