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 Post subject: Re: Faculties to Non-Catholics?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:11 pm 
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I know it was the year of mercy and as such the Holy Father felt compelled to do so, but I’m not so sure that was a good idea. In the real world, it doesn’t seem like people are just going there to get confession. Unless you’re talking about a very remote area, in general, most people can get to a diocesan priest. So I imagine the mercy was for those people that have very limited options and not for the SSPX priests. So, is the SSPX within the walls of the Church? It’s confusing because you almost have to separate the laity from the body of priestly society to make sense of it. If they have no mission provided by the Church (to my knowledge, they do not), how can they be said to be in the Catholic Church? You can’t. Are those that attend Catholic? They likely are. Rather confusing.

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 Post subject: Re: Faculties to Non-Catholics?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:25 pm 
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I don't even know what it means to ask if they have a mission. What is the mission of an ordinary secular priest?

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 Post subject: Re: Faculties to Non-Catholics?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:58 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
I don't even know what it means to ask if they have a mission. What is the mission of an ordinary secular priest?


As I understand it......it depends on which order they belong to. The important part is that they have one and have been sent by the Church.

Trent touches on this:

If any one saith, that bishops are not superior to priests; or, that they have not the power of confirming and ordaining; or, that the power which they possess is common to them and to priests; or, that orders, conferred by them, without the consent, or vocation of the people, or of the secular power, are invalid; or, that those who have neither been rightly ordained, nor sent, by ecclesiastical and canonical power, but come from elsewhere, are lawful ministers of the word and of the sacraments; let him be anathema.

John Salza expands on this:

Being a member of the “episcopal body,”[8] a bishop’s life-blood is indeed jurisdiction, which flows to him from the head and renders “active” his ontological powers, by which he gives life to other members of the body. If a bishop attempts to exercise these sacred powers outside of communion with the body, he truly is a “thief and robber,” because he appropriates something to himself that does not belong to him. We are reminded of the Seventh Commandment: “Thou shalt not steal.” Thus, bishops who operate without canonical mission are not considered legitimate successors of the Apostles. To the contrary, the Council of Trent anathematizes anyone who would call such bishops lawful ministers, since they engage in unlawful (or, as Pius XII said, “criminal and sacrilegious”) activity: “If anyone saith that bishops…who have neither been rightly ordained, nor sent by ecclesiastical and canonical power, but come from elsewhere, are lawful ministers of the word and of the sacraments; let him be anathema.”

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 Post subject: Re: Faculties to Non-Catholics?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:28 pm 
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That's obviously referring to vagus bishops, or those in a situation similar to the CPCA, and I'm not sure one can say it applies any more. In any case Lefebvre would have denied that he was exercising his episcopal powers outside the Church.

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 Post subject: Re: Faculties to Non-Catholics?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 5:41 pm 
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It's a different situation but it's in no way obvious that this doesn't apply. If having a mission and being sent is still a thing (which it is), it makes sense that it would still apply. St. Francis de Sales dedicates his entire life till the importance of having a mission and how it ties to authority. We don't dismiss this because we happen to like what Lefebvre was doing.

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 Post subject: Re: Faculties to Non-Catholics?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:43 am 
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Salza is not always the best commentator.

The SSPX is in a situation that is at least analogous to the Orthodox. They don't have an explicit mission, but it seems they have at least a tacitly permitted one.

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 Post subject: Re: Faculties to Non-Catholics?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:21 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Salza is not always the best commentator.

The SSPX is in a situation that is at least analogous to the Orthodox. They don't have an explicit mission, but it seems they have at least a tacitly permitted one.


I hope you're right Father, but I don't understand how this can be something "tacitly permitted" if the laity has decisions to make on whether it fulfills their Sunday obligation; it either fulfills it or it doesn't. Just doesn’t seem like something we can be tacit about. Especially given that Lefebvre seems to have been aware that being provided a mission was necessary (he asked for clarification from Ratzinger). His letters with [then] Cardinal Ratzinger were public and to leave such a thing unclear seems to not go with the mode of the whole thing. The provided faculties weren’t tacit. The retraction of excommunications wasn’t tacit. I know it’s complicated with the SSPX but it’s such an important detail to leave out that it’s hard not to assume that if Rome wanted to (like they did publicly with the other things) they could; but they haven’t publicly made it clear. Not without a dispensation according to Fr. Z at least.

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 Post subject: Re: Faculties to Non-Catholics?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:44 pm 
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SSPX Masses fulfill your obligation. I am not aware that anything has changed in that respect recently.

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 Post subject: Re: Faculties to Non-Catholics?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:21 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
SSPX Masses fulfill your obligation. I am not aware that anything has changed in that respect recently.


Archbishop Pozzo who has been working on the reconciliation with the SSPX on July 2018 conveyed the following:

"No, I do not think it can be interpreted in that way; it is not an encouragement to go see the Society priests. The pope gave his motives in the decree. He is concerned for the spiritual salvation of the SSPX faithful. That is the reason he made sacramental absolution for sins and Extreme Unction for sick persons valid and licit even after the Holy Year, for the good of souls. Suprema lex salus animarum. This was also the reason for the Letter on Marriages, to grant the possibility of a valid marriage with due canonical form, for the good of souls, and certainly in view of a reconciliation. The priests and bishops of the Society of St. Pius X nonetheless exercise their ministry illicitly and illegitimately. They are not excommunicated, of course, not anymore; the excommunication was lifted, so they are not formally schismatic – it is absolutely false to claim that the SSPX is schismatic from a formal, canonical point of view – because there is no longer a schism since they are no longer excommunicated; that is very clear. But they are in an irregular situation, and insofar as they do not have a canonical recognition, they do not exercise their ministry legitimately, except for confessions and marriages, as granted by the pope. We must be very clear about this. The necessity of a canonical recognition is not just a notarial, formal act. The Church is a visible structure and it is essential for the clergy to have a canonical recognition from the Holy See. And this is another truth of the reality of the Church and they should admit it."

https:///en/news-events/news/neither-schismatic-nor-excommunicated-abp-pozzo-fr-jean-michel-gleize-40262

No mention of Holy Communion. Unless there have been further developments, how does this fulfill our Sunday obligation?

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 Post subject: Re: Faculties to Non-Catholics?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:33 pm 
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That quote is a bit weird, since there isn't really any such thing as "SSPX faithful"; there is no mechanism for enrolling an ordinary layperson in the SSPX.

Anyway, it's true that priests of the SSPX do not exercise their ministry legitimately, but the faithful aren't responsible for that. An ordinary layperson has no duty to ensure that the Mass he attends to fulfill his Sunday obligation is licit - imagine if he did! My guess is that the majority of Masses I've attended in the Montini-Bugnini Rite have been illicit.

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 Post subject: Re: Faculties to Non-Catholics?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:37 pm 
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Dominic wrote:
No mention of Holy Communion. Unless there have been further developments, how does this fulfill our Sunday obligation?

Where does he say that SSPX Masses don't fulfill the obligation? Oh, I see - he doesn't.

The Holy See has stated on more than one occasion that SSPX Masses fulfill the Sunday obligation, and (thus far) that hasn't been walked back.

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 Post subject: Re: Faculties to Non-Catholics?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:58 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
That quote is a bit weird, since there isn't really any such thing as "SSPX faithful"; there is no mechanism for enrolling an ordinary layperson in the SSPX.

Anyway, it's true that priests of the SSPX do not exercise their ministry legitimately, but the faithful aren't responsible for that. An ordinary layperson has no duty to ensure that the Mass he attends to fulfill his Sunday obligation is licit - imagine if he did! My guess is that the majority of Masses I've attended in the Montini-Bugnini Rite have been illicit.


I think it's fair to say that Bishop Pozzo knows the difference between the society of priests and those who simply attend; It's a nothing salad with that point.

I don't think it's the same to compare your everyday Catholic who may be woefully ignorant of the illicitness of the mass he attends with a body of priests that is known to have been at odds with Rome. That isn’t the same in my book. People aren’t attending there simply because they have no other choice, there are real differences that can’t be explained away with having a better liturgy.

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 Post subject: Re: Faculties to Non-Catholics?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:07 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Where does he say that SSPX Masses don't fulfill the obligation? Oh, I see - he doesn't.

The Holy See has stated on more than one occasion that SSPX Masses fulfill the Sunday obligation, and (thus far) that hasn't been walked back.


He was answering a specific question that didn’t require making that clear. But it doesn’t look good when he was very specific about what they can and can’t do. I suspect in the real world if someone made me aware that the society was…..”in an irregular situation, and insofar as they do not have a canonical recognition, they do not exercise their ministry legitimately, except for confessions and marriages, as granted by the pope. We must be very clear about this. The necessity of a canonical recognition is not just a notarial, formal act.”…….I certainly wouldn’t treat it business as usual.

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 Post subject: Re: Faculties to Non-Catholics?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 4:12 pm 
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Dominic wrote:
He was answering a specific question that didn’t require making that clear.

The way Church law works is this: permissions are interpreted broadly while penalties and restrictions are interpreted strictly. So if His Excellency means that one cannot fulfill one's Sunday obligation at an SSPX Mass, then he must say so and not beat around the bush.

Quote:
But it doesn’t look good when he was very specific about what they can and can’t do. I suspect in the real world if someone made me aware that the society was…..”in an irregular situation, and insofar as they do not have a canonical recognition, they do not exercise their ministry legitimately, except for confessions and marriages, as granted by the pope. We must be very clear about this. The necessity of a canonical recognition is not just a notarial, formal act.”…….I certainly wouldn’t treat it business as usual.

No one said it was "business as usual" but then neither is a local pastor saying "for you and for all" at the Consecration.

I agree that SSPX Masses are illicit; I don't agree that the faithful therefore have the obligation to avoid them, any more than I am obligated to avoid the local Mass that is always illicit when celebrated by the pastor.

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