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 Post subject: Faculties to Non-Catholics?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:22 am 
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Can the Church provide faculties to protestant pastors?

Is that even possible?

Some examples?

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 Post subject: Re: Faculties to Non-Catholics?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:26 am 
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Faculties for what?

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 Post subject: Re: Faculties to Non-Catholics?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:53 am 
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A Protestant can be the official witness to a marriage, with permission.

Anyone can baptize validly.

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 Post subject: Re: Faculties to Non-Catholics?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:31 am 
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I was thinking of something closer to what the SSPX was given.

In baptism, are those people baptizing provided faculties via the Church in some supernatural means? In other words, some sacraments require official approval from the Church and others do not.

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 Post subject: Re: Faculties to Non-Catholics?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:24 am 
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A pagan, an atheist, any human may validly baptize as long as they intend what the Church intends in the baptism + use the proper matter + use the Trinitarian formula.

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 Post subject: Re: Faculties to Non-Catholics?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:44 pm 
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kage_ar wrote:
A pagan, an atheist, any human may validly baptize as long as they intend what the Church intends in the baptism + use the proper matter + use the Trinitarian formula.

You've stated it the way it's often stated, but that's wrong. They have to intend to do what the Church does. If they have to intend what the Church intends, an atheist can't do it. But if the atheist says, "I know this is what those crazy Christians do, so I'm doing it for my dying friend," then he intends to do what the Church does and baptizes validly.

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 Post subject: Re: Faculties to Non-Catholics?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:45 pm 
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Dominic wrote:
I was thinking of something closer to what the SSPX was given.

In baptism, are those people baptizing provided faculties via the Church in some supernatural means? In other words, some sacraments require official approval from the Church and others do not.

Baptism by nature does not require faculties. Marriage could in principle, but in practice the Church chooses not to exercise authority over the marriages of non-Catholics.

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 Post subject: Re: Faculties to Non-Catholics?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:50 pm 
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Orthodox priests have the faculty to confirm those entrusted to their care by the tacit permission of the Pope.

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 Post subject: Re: Faculties to Non-Catholics?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:32 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
kage_ar wrote:
A pagan, an atheist, any human may validly baptize as long as they intend what the Church intends in the baptism + use the proper matter + use the Trinitarian formula.

You've stated it the way it's often stated, but that's wrong. They have to intend to do what the Church does. If they have to intend what the Church intends, an atheist can't do it. But if the atheist says, "I know this is what those crazy Christians do, so I'm doing it for my dying friend," then he intends to do what the Church does and baptizes validly.


Verbally, that sounds like splitting hairs. How is what you said, different than what Kelly said?

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 Post subject: Re: Faculties to Non-Catholics?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:43 pm 
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To intend "what the Church does" just means that - it doesn't mean you know what the Church does or agree with it. For example a priest who doesn't believe in transsubstantiation still validly confects the Eucharist as long as his intention is to do what the Church does. He can be wrong or mistaken about "what the Church does".

To intend "what the Church intends" would mean needing to understand and accept what the Church intends.

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 Post subject: Re: Faculties to Non-Catholics?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:24 pm 
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anawim wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
kage_ar wrote:
A pagan, an atheist, any human may validly baptize as long as they intend what the Church intends in the baptism + use the proper matter + use the Trinitarian formula.

You've stated it the way it's often stated, but that's wrong. They have to intend to do what the Church does. If they have to intend what the Church intends, an atheist can't do it. But if the atheist says, "I know this is what those crazy Christians do, so I'm doing it for my dying friend," then he intends to do what the Church does and baptizes validly.


Verbally, that sounds like splitting hairs. How is what you said, different than what Kelly said?


Imagine a baptism scene done for a movie like in the closing scene of The Godfather. Is it still a valid baptism? Of course not, because no one intends to perform a baptism. The intention to do what the Church dies is literally the only difference

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 Post subject: Re: Faculties to Non-Catholics?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:45 pm 
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Doom wrote:
anawim wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
kage_ar wrote:
A pagan, an atheist, any human may validly baptize as long as they intend what the Church intends in the baptism + use the proper matter + use the Trinitarian formula.

You've stated it the way it's often stated, but that's wrong. They have to intend to do what the Church does. If they have to intend what the Church intends, an atheist can't do it. But if the atheist says, "I know this is what those crazy Christians do, so I'm doing it for my dying friend," then he intends to do what the Church does and baptizes validly.


Verbally, that sounds like splitting hairs. How is what you said, different than what Kelly said?


Imagine a baptism scene done for a movie like in the closing scene of The Godfather. Is it still a valid baptism? Of course not, because no one intends to perform a baptism. The intention to do what the Church dies is literally the only difference



:thumbsup:

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 Post subject: Re: Faculties to Non-Catholics?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 1:58 pm 
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Doom wrote:
anawim wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
kage_ar wrote:
A pagan, an atheist, any human may validly baptize as long as they intend what the Church intends in the baptism + use the proper matter + use the Trinitarian formula.

You've stated it the way it's often stated, but that's wrong. They have to intend to do what the Church does. If they have to intend what the Church intends, an atheist can't do it. But if the atheist says, "I know this is what those crazy Christians do, so I'm doing it for my dying friend," then he intends to do what the Church does and baptizes validly.


Verbally, that sounds like splitting hairs. How is what you said, different than what Kelly said?


Imagine a baptism scene done for a movie like in the closing scene of The Godfather. Is it still a valid baptism? Of course not, because no one intends to perform a baptism. The intention to do what the Church dies is literally the only difference


Never saw The Godfather.

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 Post subject: Re: Faculties to Non-Catholics?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:03 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Faculties to Non-Catholics?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:10 pm 
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New Denzinger, 3100-3102 deals with this. The question was whether a Methodist minister baptizes validly if he explicitly states, at the time of the baptism, that he believes it has no effect on the soul. The answer was that he does.

The Holy Office summarized the decision as follows: "In spite of the error regarding the effects of baptism, the intention of doing what the Church does is not excluded."

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 Post subject: Re: Faculties to Non-Catholics?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:30 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Baptism by nature does not require faculties. Marriage could in principle, but in practice, the Church chooses not to exercise authority over the marriages of non-Catholics.


I assume the faculties given to the SSPX work differently? If I recall, they were given the faculty to forgive in confession. This wouldn't be something that could be extended to a protestant pastor correct?

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 Post subject: Re: Faculties to Non-Catholics?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:48 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
New Denzinger, 3100-3102 deals with this. The question was whether a Methodist minister baptizes validly if he explicitly states, at the time of the baptism, that he believes it has no effect on the soul. The answer was that he does.

The Holy Office summarized the decision as follows: "In spite of the error regarding the effects of baptism, the intention of doing what the Church does is not excluded."


Well this is interesting....

I was baptized as a baby by a Methodist minister who said exactly that to my parents (although I didn't know it until I was an adult). Later, as a Baptist, I was baptized again when I was around 12 years old.

I know now that I shouldn't have been baptized twice. But, in some ways it brings me comfort I suppose - it leads me to assume at least one of my baptisms was almost certainly valid (at least certain enough I won't ask for conditional baptism).

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 Post subject: Re: Faculties to Non-Catholics?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:27 pm 
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Dominic wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Baptism by nature does not require faculties. Marriage could in principle, but in practice, the Church chooses not to exercise authority over the marriages of non-Catholics.


I assume the faculties given to the SSPX work differently? If I recall, they were given the faculty to forgive in confession. This wouldn't be something that could be extended to a protestant pastor correct?


The faculty to witness a marriage could certainly be extended to a Protestant pastor (e.g. in case of a mixed marriage) but not the faculty of hearing confessions.

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 Post subject: Re: Faculties to Non-Catholics?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 3:01 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
The faculty to witness a marriage could certainly be extended to a Protestant pastor (e.g. in case of a mixed marriage) but not the faculty of hearing confessions.


Ok, that's what figured. The question arises from an FSSP priest saying that the SSPX priests receiving faculties does not mean that they are in the Catholic Church because they need to be given a mission. Which is confusing because the Church doesn’t give faculties to those outside the Church. At least not in the way it has with SSPX. A bit confusing.

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 Post subject: Re: Faculties to Non-Catholics?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:16 am 
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It's true that SSPX priests being granted faculties does not necessarily mean that they're "in the Church". A Protestant pastor can't be granted faculties to hear confessions because they're not ordained to the priesthood and, therefore, don't possess the Power of the Keys. An Ortho priest could, in theory, be granted the faculty to hear confessions (just as they've been granted the faculty to confirm).

That said, the Pope's words in granting SSPX priests the faculty to hear confessions were a bit stronger:

Quote:
In the meantime, motivated by the need to respond to the good of these faithful, through my own disposition, I establish that those who, during the holy Year of Mercy, approach these priests of the Fraternity of St. Pius X to celebrate the sacrament of reconciliation shall validly and licitly receive the absolution of their sins.


So the faithful - any faithful - may approach an SSPX priest for confession, without any further conditions. That's not the case with non-Catholic priests.

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