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 Post subject: Re: Sin of impiety toward tradition and popes authority
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:43 am 
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Well, he can put changes into the book known as "The Catechism of the Catholic Church" but he can't change "the catechism" which is just the whole body of the Church's doctrine. But in any case, "The Catechism of the Catholic Church" doesn't have any authority on its own, it has only the authority of the documents and texts it cites. So Pope Francis's errors on the death penalty, e.g., don't become authoritative through their inclusion in "The Catechism of the Catholic Church".

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 Post subject: Re: Sin of impiety toward tradition and popes authority
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:39 am 
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Yeah, we're saying the same thing basically.

I was hoping to get something with more meat, like a Council or an Encyclical that says the Pope is limited in his authority and cannot abrogate a particular liturgy.

There is this.....

Relevant affirmations from Vatican II. - Orientale Ecclesiarum, Promulgated by Pope Paul VI, November 21, 1964

1- The Catholic Church holds in high esteem the institutions, liturgical rites, ecclesiastical traditions and the established standards of the Christian life of the Eastern Churches for in them, distinguished as they are for their venerable antiquity, there remains conspicuous the tradition that has been handed down from the Apostles through the Fathers and that forms part of the divinely revealed and undivided heritage of the universal Church.

2- (T)he variety within the Church in no way harms its unity; rather it manifests it, for it is the mind of the Catholic Church that each individual Church or Rite should retain its traditions whole and entire and likewise that it should adapt its way of life to the different needs of time and place.

3- These individual Churches, whether of the East or the West, although they differ somewhat among themselves in rite (to use the current phrase), that is, in liturgy, ecclesiastical discipline, and spiritual heritage, are, nevertheless, each as much as the others, entrusted to the pastoral government of the Roman Pontiff, the divinely appointed successor of St. Peter in primacy over the universal Church.

4- (These individual Churches) are consequently of equal dignity, so that none of them is superior to the others as regards rite and they enjoy the same rights and are under the same obligations, also in respect of preaching the Gospel to the whole world (cf. Mark 16, 15) under the guidance of the Roman Pontiff.

5- Means should be taken therefore in every part of the world for the protection and advancement of all the individual Churches and, to this end, there should be established parishes and a special hierarchy where the spiritual good of the faithful demands it.

6- (The Sacred and Ecumenical Council) solemnly declares that the Churches of the East, as much as those of the West, have a full right and are in duty bound to rule themselves, each in accordance with its own established disciplines, since all these are praiseworthy by reason of their venerable antiquity, more harmonious with the character of their faithful and more suited to the promotion of the good of souls.

7- All members of the Eastern (Churches) should know and be convinced that they can and should always preserve their legitimate liturgical rite and their established way of life, and that these may not be altered except to obtain for themselves an organic improvement.

8- Those who, by reason of their office or apostolic ministries, are in frequent communication with the Eastern Churches or their faithful should be instructed according as their office demands in the knowledge and veneration of the rites, discipline, doctrine, history and character of the members of the Eastern (Churches).

9- By the most ancient tradition of the Church the patriarchs of the Eastern Churches are to be accorded special honor, seeing that each is set over his patriarchate as father and head. This Sacred Council, therefore, determines that their rights and privileges should be re-established in accordance with the ancient tradition of each of the Churches and the decrees of the ecumenical councils. The rights and privileges in question are those that obtained in the time of union between East and West; though they should be adapted somewhat to modern conditions. The patriarchs with their synods are the highest authority for all business of the patriarchate, including the right of establishing new eparchies and of nominating bishops of their rite within the territorial bounds of the patriarchate, without prejudice to the inalienable right of the Roman Pontiff to intervene in individual cases.

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 Post subject: Re: Sin of impiety toward tradition and popes authority
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:05 am 
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There is definitely no conciliar document that explicitly says that the Pope's authority over the liturgy is limited. But I don't think it is possible to understand Summorum Pontificum without understanding that the Pope's authority over the liturgical rites received by the Church is not absolute. Because, e.g., Paul VI definitely did intend to abrogate the older rite of Mass.

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 Post subject: Re: Sin of impiety toward tradition and popes authority
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:26 pm 
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I can't say I've heard anyone argue for the Pope's authority as absolute in regards to the liturgy. At least with those who seem to invest the time (short of me saying proclaimed Orthodox Catholics I suppose). What they do say however is that a Pope has the authority to change and abrogate the liturgy. As a catholic, one would read this and know it doesn't include the essential elements of the liturgy; That can't be obsoleted or changed in a manner that it means something else. Even the deletion of an entire Rite (which has happened) doesn't necessarily violate this (because the new rite could still provide those essential elements). What was seen as Tradition (as far as I understand) were certain elements in the liturgy, not the entirety of liturgy itself.

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 Post subject: Re: Sin of impiety toward tradition and popes authority
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:23 pm 
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Dominic wrote:
What they do say however is that a Pope has the authority to change and abrogate the liturgy.

That's absolute power!

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 Post subject: Re: Sin of impiety toward tradition and popes authority
PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:01 am 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Dominic wrote:
What they do say however is that a Pope has the authority to change and abrogate the liturgy.

That's absolute power!


How is that absolute power when Doctrine and Liturgy are still preserved? It's not like the liturgy in its entirety seized to exist.

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 Post subject: Re: Sin of impiety toward tradition and popes authority
PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 1:08 pm 
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What is the sense in which you're using "preserved" here?

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 Post subject: Re: Sin of impiety toward tradition and popes authority
PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:32 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
What is the sense in which you're using "preserved" here?


At some point in history, some elements within the liturgy were considered a part of Tradition and untouchable (the words and actions surrounding the Eucharist for example). This is what I mean by preserved.

These elements exist within all rites and liturgies.

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 Post subject: Re: Sin of impiety toward tradition and popes authority
PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:09 pm 
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Dominic wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
What is the sense in which you're using "preserved" here?


At some point in history, some elements within the liturgy were considered a part of Tradition and untouchable (the words and actions surrounding the Eucharist for example). This is what I mean by preserved.

These elements exist within all rites and liturgies.


I mean, the traditional Roman liturgy was """banned""" and something else took its place. So it's not clear to me what exactly was preserved. The Words of Institution?

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 Post subject: Re: Sin of impiety toward tradition and popes authority
PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:17 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
I mean, the traditional Roman liturgy was """banned""" and something else took its place. So it's not clear to me what exactly was preserved. The Words of Institution?


Well, you answered a question with a question so I would like to understand why you think it would be absolute authority given what I've noted. You said it for a reason right?

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 Post subject: Re: Sin of impiety toward tradition and popes authority
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:44 am 
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Dominic wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
I mean, the traditional Roman liturgy was """banned""" and something else took its place. So it's not clear to me what exactly was preserved. The Words of Institution?


Well, you answered a question with a question so I would like to understand why you think it would be absolute authority given what I've noted. You said it for a reason right?


My question is, if the Pope can """ban""" an entire liturgical rite - not just the Missal, but the Calendar, the Breviary, and the forms (but not the essential parts) of every sacrament as well - and replace it with something else, contrived and concocted, how is that not absolute authority over the liturgy? What can't he replace? Could he pare the Mass down to the Words of Institution?

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 Post subject: Re: Sin of impiety toward tradition and popes authority
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:04 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
My question is, if the Pope can """ban""" an entire liturgical rite - not just the Missal, but the Calendar, the Breviary, and the forms (but not the essential parts) of every sacrament as well - and replace it with something else, contrived and concocted, how is that not absolute authority over the liturgy? What can't he replace? Could he pare the Mass down to the Words of Institution?


The simple answer is because this can be done while respecting organic development....aka....the essential parts.

By respecting, as noted previously, I simply mean that they are still intact with the new rite.

I don't have a clear answer as to what this would look like because it's not something that was common (even though it was done with the Gallican Rite) I suspect the essential parts give way to some of the very things you are touching on (since this is how it likely developed). Obviously, it takes more than just the essential parts to give us a liturgy, but it certainly doesn't mean the parts that you speak of, that act as a sort of glue, can't be changed or removed.

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 Post subject: Re: Sin of impiety toward tradition and popes authority
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:26 am 
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Dominic wrote:
The simple answer is because this can be done while respecting organic development....aka....the essential parts.

That's not what organic development is.

Quote:
By respecting, as noted previously, I simply mean that they are still intact with the new rite.

But what is intact in the new rite? Honestly almost nothing:

- not the Propers of the Mass
- not much of the Ordinary of the Mass
- not the anaphora
- not the Calendar
- not the Divine Office
- not the forms of the Sacraments
- not the Ritual

So what's left? Even the Words of Institution were not preserved completely intact.

Quote:
I don't have a clear answer as to what this would look like because it's not something that was common (even though it was done with the Gallican Rite)

What was done with the Gallican Rite (actually Rites)? Some of the French diocesan uses survive to this day. And even where they fell into desuetude it was a process of centuries.

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 Post subject: Re: Sin of impiety toward tradition and popes authority
PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 3:10 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
That's not what organic development is.

Hmm....I can see what you mean.

I think I have more of a Newman perception of development. It makes the most sense given how we see history materialize. Whereby....every dogma proclaimed by the Church for belief, always has been true, and its meaning cannot be altered or changed so that it bears a different meaning than that held by the Church in previous times. The idea that we can be quasi-archeologists and find nicely packed sequential connections without interruption is simply not what the evidence will show. Tradition lies in the interpretational consciousness of the magisterium and comes to life in writings we must assent to. So the concept that every dogma or doctrine contained in the deposit of faith confided to the Apostles has been the object of explicit belief in every age, and only subject to new technical language in the definitions of Ecumenical Councils is not how I've always understood doctrinal development.

This might not even be a point of contention, but it's important to lay out what one understands to be able to rectify where one might be misunderstanding.

So when I see something within the Church arise, I am only looking to whether it contradicts what we believe and not necessarily whether it's got a clean transition from what was prior to it. It's better that we do, but it's not necessarily a must.
Peregrinator wrote:
But what is intact in the new rite? Honestly almost nothing:

- not the Propers of the Mass
- not much of the Ordinary of the Mass
- not the anaphora
- not the Calendar
- not the Divine Office
- not the forms of the Sacraments
- not the Ritual

So what's left? Even the Words of Institution were not preserved completely intact.

That's exactly what I was trying to get from you, but somehow this got turned around back to me.

I really don't know the answer to this. I just know that when this question is asked, it gets an implicit response of "you can't change anything"...or...."tell me what you want to remove and I'll tell if you can". The essential elements may or may not include what you noted. I just know that Popes have changed the liturgy and apparently they still think they got a wide range of authority over it.

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