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 Post subject: Sin of impiety toward tradition and popes authority
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:17 am 
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I'm not entirely sure how this works.

I read someone note that the Pope suppressing or abrogating the liturgy is a sin of impiety or wicked so therefore we do not have to obey to any such command.

Did Vatican 1 not cover the Pope's supreme authority?

And there are documents like this:

Mediator Dei 1947:
58.It follows from this that the Sovereign Pontiff alone enjoys the right to recognize and establish any practice touching the worship of God, to introduce and approve new rites, as also to modify those he judges to require modification.[50] Bishops, for their part, have the right and duty carefully to watch over the exact observance of the prescriptions of the sacred canons respecting divine worship.[51] Private individuals, therefore, even though they be clerics, may not be left to decide for themselves in these holy and venerable matters,

.....and

60. The use of the Latin language, customary in a considerable portion of the Church, is a manifest and beautiful sign of unity, as well as an effective antidote for any corruption of doctrinal truth. In spite of this, the use of the mother tongue in connection with several of the rites may be of much advantage to the people. But the Apostolic See alone is empowered to grant this permission. It is forbidden, therefore, to take any action whatever of this nature without having requested and obtained such consent, since the sacred liturgy, as We have said, is entirely subject to the discretion and approval of the Holy See.

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 Post subject: Re: Sin of impiety toward tradition and popes authority
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:09 pm 
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I don't know about wicked but it's likely ultra vires -- "supreme authority" does not mean that the Pope can do whatever he wants.

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 Post subject: Re: Sin of impiety toward tradition and popes authority
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:49 pm 
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Even those suspected of possibly holding to such a position, I have found, do not.

Of course, he can't contradict Tradition or Doctrine, but where is liturgy in this?

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 Post subject: Re: Sin of impiety toward tradition and popes authority
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:08 am 
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Every received rite of the Church belongs to her sacred tradition

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 Post subject: Re: Sin of impiety toward tradition and popes authority
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:56 am 
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Given the extent of the authority described in Vatican 1 for the Pope, I don't understand how this doesn't cover rites and liturgy.

Mediator Dei in the same section points to what is likely what can't be touched in a liturgy (which most seem to agree):

59. The Church is without question a living organism, and as an organism, in respect of the sacred liturgy also, she grows, matures, develops, adapts and accommodates herself to temporal needs and circumstances, provided only that the integrity of her doctrine be safeguarded.

So the Pope can change and add any liturgy, but can't obsolete them?

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 Post subject: Re: Sin of impiety toward tradition and popes authority
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:24 pm 
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Dominic wrote:
Given the extent of the authority described in Vatican 1 for the Pope, I don't understand how this doesn't cover rites and liturgy.

Mediator Dei in the same section points to what is likely what can't be touched in a liturgy (which most seem to agree):

59. The Church is without question a living organism, and as an organism, in respect of the sacred liturgy also, she grows, matures, develops, adapts and accommodates herself to temporal needs and circumstances, provided only that the integrity of her doctrine be safeguarded.

So the Pope can change and add any liturgy, but can't obsolete them?


Just as a Pope cannot spontaneously manufacture tradition, he cannot eradicate it either. He wants to excuse of supposed 'division' caused by the Latin Mass, but there is no division, there is only diversity, which has been regarded as legitimate. The only 'division' is being caused by Francis himself in his intolerant insistence that everyone has to do everything his way, his 'my way or the highway' approach is the only source of division.

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 Post subject: Re: Sin of impiety toward tradition and popes authority
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:49 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Just as a Pope cannot spontaneously manufacture tradition, he cannot eradicate it either. He wants to excuse of supposed 'division' caused by the Latin Mass, but there is no division, there is only diversity, which has been regarded as legitimate. The only 'division' is being caused by Francis himself in his intolerant insistence that everyone has to do everything his way, his 'my way or the highway' approach is the only source of division.


I'm trying to make this a larger discussion and not Francis as a focal point. A Pope either has the authority to change or abrogate a liturgy, or he doesn't.

Can you think of any document at least points to the fact that he can't do this?

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 Post subject: Re: Sin of impiety toward tradition and popes authority
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:37 pm 
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Dominic wrote:
Doom wrote:
Just as a Pope cannot spontaneously manufacture tradition, he cannot eradicate it either. He wants to excuse of supposed 'division' caused by the Latin Mass, but there is no division, there is only diversity, which has been regarded as legitimate. The only 'division' is being caused by Francis himself in his intolerant insistence that everyone has to do everything his way, his 'my way or the highway' approach is the only source of division.


I'm trying to make this a larger discussion and not Francis as a focal point. A Pope either has the authority to change or abrogate a liturgy, or he doesn't.

Can you think of any document at least points to the fact that he can't do this?

Even an ecumenical council cannot ban a iturgy

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Last edited by Doom on Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sin of impiety toward tradition and popes authority
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:44 pm 
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Dominic wrote:
A Pope either has the authority to change or abrogate a liturgy, or he doesn't.

It depends on what you mean by "change" and as far as abrogate goes, no. Msgr. Gamber discusses this. The Pope definitely does not have the authority to create a rite out of whole cloth and force an entire ritual Church to adopt it.

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Can you think of any document at least points to the fact that he can't do this?


Canon xiii. If any one shall say, that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church, wont to be used in the solemn administration of the sacraments, may be contemned, or without sin omitted at pleasure by the ministers, or be changed by any pastor of the churches into other new ones; let him be anathema.

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 Post subject: Re: Sin of impiety toward tradition and popes authority
PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:48 am 
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"without sin omitted at pleasure" - So the Pope having a good reason doesn't fall into this?

1125 For this reason no sacramental rite may be modified or manipulated at the will of the minister or the community. Even the supreme authority in the Church may not change the liturgy arbitrarily, but only in the obedience of faith and with religious respect for the mystery of the liturgy.

And is the Pope beholden to Canon Law?

I ask because there have been attempts from a Pope to both change and obsolete (Pope Victor imposing on Asia Minor comes to mind) customs. Even an entire rite was obsoleted (I can't recall which one).

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 Post subject: Re: Sin of impiety toward tradition and popes authority
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:35 am 
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What makes you think the Pope has a good reason for Traditionis Custodes?

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 Post subject: Re: Sin of impiety toward tradition and popes authority
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:21 am 
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In general, I don't. I do think the response by some traditionalists may for a second looks like it may have warranted it based on some responses I've seen; but really, I'm sure you'd agree that it's rather important to know if he is overstepping his bounds.

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 Post subject: Re: Sin of impiety toward tradition and popes authority
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:25 am 
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Doom wrote:
Even an ecumenical council cannot ban a iturgy


Well, the obvious response to that is of course that the Pope is above Ecumenical Councils.

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 Post subject: Re: Sin of impiety toward tradition and popes authority
PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:23 pm 
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Dominic wrote:
Doom wrote:
Just as a Pope cannot spontaneously manufacture tradition, he cannot eradicate it either. He wants to excuse of supposed 'division' caused by the Latin Mass, but there is no division, there is only diversity, which has been regarded as legitimate. The only 'division' is being caused by Francis himself in his intolerant insistence that everyone has to do everything his way, his 'my way or the highway' approach is the only source of division.


I'm trying to make this a larger discussion and not Francis as a focal point. A Pope either has the authority to change or abrogate a liturgy, or he doesn't.

Can you think of any document at least points to the fact that he can't do this?

Canon 87 ?


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 Post subject: Re: Sin of impiety toward tradition and popes authority
PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:33 pm 
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Dominic wrote:
Doom wrote:
Even an ecumenical council cannot ban a iturgy


Well, the obvious response to that is of course that the Pope is above Ecumenical Councils.


Papal infallibility does not mean that the Pope can say or do anything he likes. It actually means the exact opposite of that his range of action is quite limited as he is bound by precedent. Pope Francis cannot declare illegitimate what not just previous Popes but the universal assent of the faithful have declared legitimate. Previous Popea have already taught that the Latin Mass cannot be legitimately abrogated Pope Francis has mo authority to say otherwise.

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 Post subject: Re: Sin of impiety toward tradition and popes authority
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:22 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Dominic wrote:
Doom wrote:
Even an ecumenical council cannot ban a iturgy


Well, the obvious response to that is of course that the Pope is above Ecumenical Councils.


Papal infallibility does not mean that the Pope can say or do anything he likes. It actually means the exact opposite of that his range of action is quite limited as he is bound by precedent. Pope Francis cannot declare illegitimate what not just previous Popes but the universal assent of the faithful have declared legitimate. Previous Popea have already taught that the Latin Mass cannot be legitimately abrogated Pope Francis has mo authority to say otherwise.


And yet Pope Francis has said capital punishment is wrong and changed the catechism…..

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 Post subject: Re: Sin of impiety toward tradition and popes authority
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:18 am 
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Peetem wrote:
And yet Pope Francis has said capital punishment is wrong and changed the catechism…..

And he has no authority to do so

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 Post subject: Re: Sin of impiety toward tradition and popes authority
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:19 am 
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Doom wrote:
Dominic wrote:
Papal infallibility does not mean that the Pope can say or do anything he likes. It actually means the exact opposite of that his range of action is quite limited as he is bound by precedent. Pope Francis cannot declare illegitimate what not just previous Popes but the universal assent of the faithful have declared legitimate. Previous Popea have already taught that the Latin Mass cannot be legitimately abrogated Pope Francis has mo authority to say otherwise.


Vatican 1 doesn't fall under papal infallibility; nor does the encyclical noted above. Then you have examples in history of Popes trying to do exactly what is said he can't do.....abrogate the liturgy.

I've read some quotes from Saints and other fathers of the past noting along the lines of what you are saying but the problem is that the opposite has also been true and it's got some support from a Council, Encyclical, and examples in history. This Pope sure seems to incline in the direction that he does indeed have the authority.

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Last edited by Dominic on Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:30 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sin of impiety toward tradition and popes authority
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:28 am 
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Stargazer wrote:
Canon 87 ?


"Since there is no superior above the pope, he can therefore dispense from all canonical laws: universal laws introduced by himself, his predecessors or general councils, and particular laws enacted by plenary and provincial councils, bishops and similar prelates. The pope can dispense from canon law in all cases that are not contrary to Divine law – except in the case of vows, espousals and marriages ratum sed non consummatum, or valid and consummated marriages of neophytes before baptism."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jurisprudence_of_Catholic_canon_law#:~:text=Since%20there%20is%20no%20superior,councils%2C%20bishops%20and%20similar%20prelates.

<edit>

I had to go back and read it. Essentially it's going to be Bishops continuing to do what they see fit until something more authoritative says otherwise.

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Last edited by Dominic on Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sin of impiety toward tradition and popes authority
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:36 am 
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Peregrinator wrote:
And he has no authority to do so


To change doctrine of course. He can change the Catechism if he likes.

It's unclear to me whether that is the case with capital punishment in the CCC but it is certainly confusing.

Nonetheless, it's the CCC and serves as a guide, it can contain errors as we all know.

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