Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 1   [ 10 posts ]   
Author Message
 Post subject: WWI and Just War Theory
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:39 pm 
Offline
Adept
Adept
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:25 am
Posts: 5153
Location: Fort Smith, AR
Religion: Christian & Missionary Alliance
If WWI is taken to be an unjust war, as I take it to be rather universally, at least insofar as how destructive it was, does that mean that Wilson's neutrality was (theologically speaking) the correct position to take? And does that mean that he should have stayed out of the war, despite the Zimmerman Telegram (assuming, for the sake of argument, it was real)? I'm trying to ask this on entirely theological terms. I don't know enough to know if that can be separated, or if so to what extent, from political terms. Regardless, I hope my question is clear.

_________________
Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: WWI and Just War Theory
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:43 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 82827
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
Ius in bello and Ius ad bellum are two distinct questions. One can concede that the US had valid national interests in the war (I would have to think about that more than I feel like doing at the moment) without agreeing with the way the war was conducted.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: WWI and Just War Theory
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:36 pm 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:22 pm
Posts: 1705
Location: Canada
Religion: la foi Catholique
Church Affiliations: K of C 4th Degree
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Ius in bello and Ius ad bellum are two distinct questions. One can concede that the US had valid national interests in the war (I would have to think about that more than I feel like doing at the moment) without agreeing with the way the war was conducted.


What was the Ius ad bellum for the USA?

_________________
In Te speravi, Domine: dixi: Tu es Deus meus, in manibus Tuis tempora mea.
Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
Tiber swim team '13


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: WWI and Just War Theory
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:27 am 
Online
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:04 pm
Posts: 527
Location: Arkansas Ozarks
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th KofC
We went to war because the Germans had resumed unrestricted submarine warfare, in violation of their pledge. This is basically the same casus bellum that started the War of 1812 -- the British had been stopping and boarding American ships on the high seas.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: WWI and Just War Theory
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:42 pm 
Offline
King of Cool
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 1:30 pm
Posts: 76569
Religion: Anticukite Catholic
Vern Humphrey wrote:
We went to war because the Germans had resumed unrestricted submarine warfare, in violation of their pledge. This is basically the same casus bellum that started the War of 1812 -- the British had been stopping and boarding American ships on the high seas.


Both of these are historical myths.

A deeper study reveals that the British conceded all of Madison's demands before he declared war. And yet he declared war anyway. He did so because he didn't learn of the British concessions until after he had declared war. And he couldn't bring himself to accept British terms and end the war because he feared it would make him look weak to the war party in Congress led by Henry Clay. The treaty forged at the end of the war actually offered worse terms than they offered before the war, which Madison agreed to because he had no choice, the war was a disaster that was in danger of destroying his presidency, he had to end it to save his historical reputation. But, Madison did make Henry Clay pay for his role in starting the war by sending him to lead the delegation to negotiate the treaty. The War of 1812 was actually a step back for American Independence.

The Federalists said that the only reason the British were impressing American sailors was due to their desperation for sailors to use in the war against Napoleon and that as soon as the war was over, the impressments would end. And they were right. That is exactly what happened.

In the case of Wilson, the 'unrestricted submarine warfare was 'a pretext. The Germans warned that they would sink any ships that drifted into their waters, and Wilson kept sending them anyway. He was trying to provoke war. A president who genuinely wanted to avoid war would not have done this.

Wilson wanted war because he knew that it would be a great way to impose his authoritarian agenda by justifying his assuming near-dictatorial powers under the guise of 'emergency.' Not for nothing has Wilson been called 'the world's first fascist dictator.'

_________________
Excelsior!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: WWI and Just War Theory
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:51 pm 
Online
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:04 pm
Posts: 527
Location: Arkansas Ozarks
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th KofC
Doom wrote:
Vern Humphrey wrote:
We went to war because the Germans had resumed unrestricted submarine warfare, in violation of their pledge. This is basically the same casus bellum that started the War of 1812 -- the British had been stopping and boarding American ships on the high seas.


Both of these are historical myths.

A deeper study reveals that the British conceded all of Madison's demands before he declared war. And yet he declared war anyway. He did so because he didn't learn of the British concessions until after he had declared war.

How is this relevant? He acted on what he thought to be true.


Doom wrote:
In the case of Wilson, the 'unrestricted submarine warfare was 'a pretext. The Germans warned that they would sink any ships that drifted into their waters, and Wilson kept sending them anyway. He was trying to provoke war. A president who genuinely wanted to avoid war would not have done this.

Wilson wanted war because he knew that it would be a great way to impose his authoritarian agenda by justifying his assuming near-dictatorial powers under the guise of 'emergency.' Not for nothing has Wilson been called 'the world's first fascist dictator.'

I'd be interested in a cite for that.

Nothing Wilson did violated international law. And the Germans HAD pledged to stop unrestricted submarine warfare.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: WWI and Just War Theory
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:52 am 
Offline
Some Poor Bibliophile
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2003 10:22 pm
Posts: 19757
Vern Humphrey wrote:
Doom wrote:
Vern Humphrey wrote:
We went to war because the Germans had resumed unrestricted submarine warfare, in violation of their pledge. This is basically the same casus bellum that started the War of 1812 -- the British had been stopping and boarding American ships on the high seas.


Both of these are historical myths.

A deeper study reveals that the British conceded all of Madison's demands before he declared war. And yet he declared war anyway. He did so because he didn't learn of the British concessions until after he had declared war.

How is this relevant? He acted on what he thought to be true.


Doom wrote:
In the case of Wilson, the 'unrestricted submarine warfare was 'a pretext. The Germans warned that they would sink any ships that drifted into their waters, and Wilson kept sending them anyway. He was trying to provoke war. A president who genuinely wanted to avoid war would not have done this.

Wilson wanted war because he knew that it would be a great way to impose his authoritarian agenda by justifying his assuming near-dictatorial powers under the guise of 'emergency.' Not for nothing has Wilson been called 'the world's first fascist dictator.'

I'd be interested in a cite for that.

Nothing Wilson did violated international law. And the Germans HAD pledged to stop unrestricted submarine warfare.


I'd be interested in a cite, too. WWI is greatly a subordinate interest, as compared, say, with my interest in WWII. But I had occasion to review some of the WWI naval warfare issues not all that long ago.

German's submarine policy as to civilian shipping was spotty. Originally, all the belligerents promised to follow the 1909 London Declaration that covered the subject, theoretically, but classic "cruiser rules" were a bad fit for submarine warfare. Say for about the first 6 months of the war, Germany did follow the rules, then occurred a couple of things (British blockade,Q ships) and the Germans declared a war zone, all targets good, but they promised to be restrained, as to sub attacks. Followed the Lusitania, of course. And eventually, for a couple of reasons, in early 1917, unrestricted submarine warfare on everything in sight. And then followed the US entry into the war, and eventually, all was quiet on the Western and other fronts.

_________________
"I tell you naught for your comfort,
Yea, naught for your desire,
Save that the sky grows darker yet
And the sea rises higher."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: WWI and Just War Theory
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:36 pm 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:22 pm
Posts: 1705
Location: Canada
Religion: la foi Catholique
Church Affiliations: K of C 4th Degree
War of 1812? Oh you mean the War of Southern Aggression.

_________________
In Te speravi, Domine: dixi: Tu es Deus meus, in manibus Tuis tempora mea.
Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
Tiber swim team '13


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: WWI and Just War Theory
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:43 pm 
Online
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:04 pm
Posts: 527
Location: Arkansas Ozarks
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th KofC
GKC wrote:
Vern Humphrey wrote:
German's submarine policy as to civilian shipping was spotty. Originally, all the belligerents promised to follow the 1909 London Declaration that covered the subject, theoretically, but classic "cruiser rules" were a bad fit for submarine warfare. Say for about the first 6 months of the war, Germany did follow the rules, then occurred a couple of things (British blockade,Q ships) and the Germans declared a war zone, all targets good, but they promised to be restrained, as to sub attacks. Followed the Lusitania, of course. And eventually, for a couple of reasons, in early 1917, unrestricted submarine warfare on everything in sight. And then followed the US entry into the war, and eventually, all was quiet on the Western and other fronts.


My point, exactly. Unrestricted submarine warfare was the casus belli.

As for Wilson's intentions, there is evidence that Wilson covered up acts of German sabotage in the United States so as NOT to inflame the people to go to war. And if he intended to go to war, why did he make no preparations? When Wilson declared war, the US Army was woefully unready -- we lacked heavy machine guns, artillery, tanks, combat-worthy aircraft and so on. We didn't even have enough rifles and pistols.

Surely if he intended to go to war, he should have ramped up production at least a year before, so as to field a fully-equipped army. As it was, the history of the AEF in WWI is a history of beg, borrow and steal.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: WWI and Just War Theory
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:54 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 9:25 pm
Posts: 10622
Location: As I understand it.....in God's will. This is the best place to be.
Religion: Orthodox (In Communion With Rome)
Church Affiliations: Past Grand Knight KoC 15107
ForeverFaithful wrote:
War of 1812? Oh you mean the War of Southern Aggression.


:laughhard :laughhard :laughhard :laughhard

You are a few years off. Right nomenclature (as we Southerners refer to it) but wrong year!

Also known as "The recent unpleasantness with the North."


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 1   [ 10 posts ]   


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests


Jump to: