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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:15 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I take it back. Here's a link from a source you'll probably like: https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2019/11/1 ... ophatic-2/

Note that he says that DBH rejects theistic personalism by name, so there are probably angles I need to explore, but it won't hurt to tighten up your thinking a bit.


Well, thank you! I shall most certainly give this a read. I am Internet friends with Fr. Aidan.

Do you read any of his blog stuff?


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 5:01 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:
You're sick!

???

Do you think non-existence is a good? How can that be, if God is Existence ("I AM WHO AM")?

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:54 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Light of the East wrote:
You're sick!

???

Do you think non-existence is a good? How can that be, if God is Existence ("I AM WHO AM")?


That's not what I said or inferred.

How can anyone think that an existence in never-ending torment is better than to have never been created?


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:26 pm 
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Because he is making a logically necessary claim. To exist in hell is at least to exist, and existence is good. To not exist is to have no good whatsoever. I don't know what "better" means, exactly, but it's probably more tightly something like, "To exist in hell in good in some minimal measure; to not exist means, necessarily, to have no measure of good."

You,LotE, seem to be assuming that a certain level of badness would render non-existence better than existence. But that seems literally self-contradictory. That would mean that the goodness of existence, if had in this amount, is literally bad, insofar as having it in a small amount rather than a greater amount means that having it is actually an evil. But evil is just a lack of good. You are implying that good just is evil. How can you say such a thing?!?

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Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:06 pm 
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theJack wrote:
Because he is making a logically necessary claim. To exist in hell is at least to exist, and existence is good. To not exist is to have no good whatsoever.


A person who doesn't exist doesn't exist! Such a person cannot feel pain, despair, or anything else.


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:00 pm 
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I can't tell whether you're agreeing with him or arguing with him.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:45 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I can't tell whether you're agreeing with him or arguing with him.

The point is, arguing about non-existence is nonsense. A non-existent person cannot be better or worse off -- because he doesn't exist.


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:02 pm 
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Which my comment recognized and took into account. So are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? :?

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Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:16 pm 
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Vern Humphrey wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I can't tell whether you're agreeing with him or arguing with him.

The point is, arguing about non-existence is nonsense. A non-existent person cannot be better or worse off -- because he doesn't exist.


:scratch:

If God is pure existence (which He is), and God it wholly good (which He is), then it follows that existence is good.

Since “good” means lacking nothing, it follows that non-existence isn’t good because you are lacking existing.

Therefore, it is better to exist than not exist.

What you are arguing is whether eternal suffering is better than non-existence.

But to suffer means you must exist.

Therefore, existence (which is good), even suffering existence, is better than non-suffering, non-existence (which is lacking good).

Am I missing something?

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:45 pm 
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I would add that the existence of a good, in hell, primarily the good of existence, rattles my brain. Since hell is the absence of good, it seems either a soul’s existence in hell demonstrates, even there, God’s mercy or, something else is going on that I don’t understand.

From my point of view total destruction makes more sense....but we know that isn’t the case, since hell isn’t empty. Therefore, it must be God’s mercy....

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:21 pm 
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Is Hell the absence of good?

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:48 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Is Hell the absence of good?


You know, at first blush I thought I knew the answer. As I give it more thought, I'm not so sure now....

Justice is good. So from that point of view, hell is full of good; God's justice is on display and being executed.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:05 am 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Light of the East wrote:
Aion means age. Period. There is no other possible translation for this word, therefore, any derivitive of it must have to do with an age - NOT eternity! But more than that, even the revered Septuagint supports the fact that aionios in no way means "eternal."

The same word is used in reference to salvation and even to describe God Himself (Romans 16:26). Is salvation not eternal? Is God not eternal? You see where DBH's adventures in translation lead!
Exactly. It's curious that the people editing Greek lexicons haven't been told these groundbreaking news.

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